SUN, MOON, and STARS
Hey Rhonda,
David, in his earlier post defined the "darkening" of the celestial bodies as a symbol of calamity or upheaval that directly affects God's people. I have since been studying all the references of the term "sun, moon, and stars"for a possible common definition. The problem with the definition by Russell as being "truth" and 'divine law" is that these terms cannot be applied in every application in the scriptures. The sun itself in one place, or the moon, individually in another might have different applications, but, when they are brought together, I think a common definition might be established, just as the "darkening" of them can have a common meaning. I kept coming back to "religion" as being the only common thread for all the passages that apply, but, even it doesn't completely satisfy. However, you posted that Russell said that the shaking of them applied to the "religious powers" being shaken and I think that is actually the key. Whether the religious powers that be profess to be Christian related or not, what they do and are affected by immediately affects God's true people whether for good or ill.
I'll put in a few references and see if they make sense:
Gen 37:9 And he dreamed yet another dream, and told it to his brethren, and said, Behold, I have dreamed yet a dream: and, behold, the sun and the moon and eleven stars made obeisance to me. Joseph dreamed that what would be the foundation of the religious powers of Israel(identified by the eleven+ one stars) would bow to him--possibly a type to Christ.
Deu 4:19 and lest thou lift up thine eyes unto heaven, and when thou seest the sun and the moon and the stars, even all the host of heaven, thou be drawn away and worship them, and serve them, which Jehovah thy God hath allotted unto all the peoples under the whole heaven. People can worship their religious powers as well--also a reference to worshipping anything or anyone else instead of God.
Psa 148:3 Praise ye him, sun and moon: Praise him, all ye stars of light. Neither the celestial bodies nor the religious powers they may represent are above the Creator
Isa 13:9 Behold, the day of Jehovah cometh, cruel, with wrath and fierce anger; to make the land a desolation, and to destroy the sinners thereof out of it.
Isa 13:10 For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light; the sun shall be darkened in its going forth, and the moon shall not cause its light to shine. At the Day of the Lord the religious powers will be shaken and overthrown.
Jer 31:35 Thus saith Jehovah, who giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, who stirreth up the sea, so that the waves thereof roar; Jehovah of hosts is his name:
Jer 31:36 If these ordinances depart from before me, saith Jehovah, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever. Keep in mind that God has ordained the governments to rule for now ( and there really is no government that does not have something to do with religion) and if/when they all turn away from him there will be judgment.
Mat 24:29 But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: Back to the great upheaval of the religious powers after the tribulation.
Luk 21:25 And there shall be signs in sun and moon and stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, in perplexity for the roaring of the sea and the billows;
Luk 21:26 men fainting for fear, and for expectation of the things which are coming on the world: for the powers of the heavens shall be shaken. More forewarnings.
1Co 15:41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars; for one star differeth from another star in glory. This is the only passage that contains all three terms, but, they do not seem to be grouped together to specify one entity or symbolic group, so I'm not sure this applies to the topic, but, if there is a common thread, I cannot see it at present.
Rev 8:12 And the fourth angel sounded, and the third part of the sun was smitten, and the third part of the moon, and the third part of the stars; that the third part of them should be darkened, and the day should not shine for the third part of it, and the night in like manner. If the terms could merely defined as truth and divine law, then it would be hard to gauge how a third could be smitten, however, as I feel this applies to a particular historic attack on the Holy Roman Empire, Oceacer's seizure of Rome, would definitely apply as an upheaval of a religious power, especially one that affected God's people.
Rev 12:1 And a great sign was seen in heaven: a woman arrayed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars; This takes us back to the first reference and identifies the woman as being identified with the Jewish religious power( 12 stars) from whence Christ came.
Rev 21:23 And the city hath no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine upon it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the lamp thereof is the Lamb.
Rev 21:24 And the nations shall walk amidst the light thereof: and the kings of the earth bring their glory into it.
This scripture does not have the "stars" included, but, we may possibly take a liberty here since there is an immediate reference to the "nations" and their respect to the light. Again if it were merely 'truth and divine law" as "sun and moon" I believe that the fact that truth would not be needed in God's city is not a wise statement. However, maybe this more of a reference to the "religion" aspect or even the "religious power" aspect as that neither would be needed in the city as that God and Christ themselves are the power and there will no longer be ceremonial religion, but, relationship.
Anyway, these are my current thoughts on the matter. If either of you happen upon anything that may support, clarify, modify, or negate this, please let me know.
Love,
Chris
Hey Rhonda,
David, in his earlier post defined the "darkening" of the celestial bodies as a symbol of calamity or upheaval that directly affects God's people. I have since been studying all the references of the term "sun, moon, and stars"for a possible common definition. The problem with the definition by Russell as being "truth" and 'divine law" is that these terms cannot be applied in every application in the scriptures. The sun itself in one place, or the moon, individually in another might have different applications, but, when they are brought together, I think a common definition might be established, just as the "darkening" of them can have a common meaning. I kept coming back to "religion" as being the only common thread for all the passages that apply, but, even it doesn't completely satisfy. However, you posted that Russell said that the shaking of them applied to the "religious powers" being shaken and I think that is actually the key. Whether the religious powers that be profess to be Christian related or not, what they do and are affected by immediately affects God's true people whether for good or ill.
I'll put in a few references and see if they make sense:
Gen 37:9 And he dreamed yet another dream, and told it to his brethren, and said, Behold, I have dreamed yet a dream: and, behold, the sun and the moon and eleven stars made obeisance to me. Joseph dreamed that what would be the foundation of the religious powers of Israel(identified by the eleven+ one stars) would bow to him--possibly a type to Christ.
Deu 4:19 and lest thou lift up thine eyes unto heaven, and when thou seest the sun and the moon and the stars, even all the host of heaven, thou be drawn away and worship them, and serve them, which Jehovah thy God hath allotted unto all the peoples under the whole heaven. People can worship their religious powers as well--also a reference to worshipping anything or anyone else instead of God.
Psa 148:3 Praise ye him, sun and moon: Praise him, all ye stars of light. Neither the celestial bodies nor the religious powers they may represent are above the Creator
Isa 13:9 Behold, the day of Jehovah cometh, cruel, with wrath and fierce anger; to make the land a desolation, and to destroy the sinners thereof out of it.
Isa 13:10 For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light; the sun shall be darkened in its going forth, and the moon shall not cause its light to shine. At the Day of the Lord the religious powers will be shaken and overthrown.
Jer 31:35 Thus saith Jehovah, who giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, who stirreth up the sea, so that the waves thereof roar; Jehovah of hosts is his name:
Jer 31:36 If these ordinances depart from before me, saith Jehovah, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever. Keep in mind that God has ordained the governments to rule for now ( and there really is no government that does not have something to do with religion) and if/when they all turn away from him there will be judgment.
Mat 24:29 But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: Back to the great upheaval of the religious powers after the tribulation.
Luk 21:25 And there shall be signs in sun and moon and stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, in perplexity for the roaring of the sea and the billows;
Luk 21:26 men fainting for fear, and for expectation of the things which are coming on the world: for the powers of the heavens shall be shaken. More forewarnings.
1Co 15:41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars; for one star differeth from another star in glory. This is the only passage that contains all three terms, but, they do not seem to be grouped together to specify one entity or symbolic group, so I'm not sure this applies to the topic, but, if there is a common thread, I cannot see it at present.
Rev 8:12 And the fourth angel sounded, and the third part of the sun was smitten, and the third part of the moon, and the third part of the stars; that the third part of them should be darkened, and the day should not shine for the third part of it, and the night in like manner. If the terms could merely defined as truth and divine law, then it would be hard to gauge how a third could be smitten, however, as I feel this applies to a particular historic attack on the Holy Roman Empire, Oceacer's seizure of Rome, would definitely apply as an upheaval of a religious power, especially one that affected God's people.
Rev 12:1 And a great sign was seen in heaven: a woman arrayed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars; This takes us back to the first reference and identifies the woman as being identified with the Jewish religious power( 12 stars) from whence Christ came.
Rev 21:23 And the city hath no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine upon it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the lamp thereof is the Lamb.
Rev 21:24 And the nations shall walk amidst the light thereof: and the kings of the earth bring their glory into it.
This scripture does not have the "stars" included, but, we may possibly take a liberty here since there is an immediate reference to the "nations" and their respect to the light. Again if it were merely 'truth and divine law" as "sun and moon" I believe that the fact that truth would not be needed in God's city is not a wise statement. However, maybe this more of a reference to the "religion" aspect or even the "religious power" aspect as that neither would be needed in the city as that God and Christ themselves are the power and there will no longer be ceremonial religion, but, relationship.
Anyway, these are my current thoughts on the matter. If either of you happen upon anything that may support, clarify, modify, or negate this, please let me know.
Love,
Chris
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