David,
I actually tried to post this earlier and my server went down. I will comment on your recent posts later.
First, let preface this this by saying that I would never dogmatize any statement concerning the resurrection due to our incapacity to fathom all that may be entailed, however, I think that some scriptures on one or more sides may be being misrepresented in order to further their particular cause. These are my current interpretations of these three sets.
Joh 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except one be born anew, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
Joh 3:4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter a second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
Joh 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except one be born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God!
Joh 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
In this account Jesus is speaking to a reknown Jew, who recognized by tradition the importance of lineage-think the Levites...etc...to the Jews. Obviously the water represents repentance and the spirit represents newness so these two ideas with being "born again" represent the shedding of any fleshly importance of lineage and becoming a new creation able to ENTER or even SEE the Kingdom of God. Also...
Joh 3:8 The wind bloweth where it will, and thou hearest the voice thereof, but knowest not whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
In relation to the previous scriptures, this does not, to me mean that the man born of spirit (at that time and in our time, not in the time to come after death) is not ethereal and "changed" already as pertains to the last trump, but, no longer puts importance on lineage( cometh) and the destinations( goeth) that that would normally afford them in an earthly way due to lineage.
Second set is...
1Co 15:49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
1Co 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
Bearing the image of the heavenly?---All I can do is speculate and be excited, but I would not be so bold as to say it cannot be a mixture or any other word since I wonder what would happen to a resurrected one in a perfect body who is then completely filled to the brim with Holy Spirit(hmm?). As to "flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God", I think that after all Paul's lessons on works alongside the previous examination, I believe that the flesh concerns one's "works" and one's blood deals with lineage. The key word here is INHERIT. If it said these would not ENTER then the flesh and blood might take on a more "physical" aspect, but, to inherit something is more of legal or supposed event as opposed to a physical something that is or is not limited to a physical body. Thus the terms "inherit" and "lineage" harmonize better to me.
This next scripture is used constantly by those who would see two classes of Christians, and by that I mean those who are found "DESERVING" of an ethereal, heavenly body like those of the angels (which of course I would not argue too strongly against), and those poor pathetic souls who will be fortunate enough to have a physical body that won't die.
This scripture seems to be used quite frequently to prove that some men will have one type of resurrection while others have a different kind...
1Co 15:39 All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one flesh of men, and another flesh of beasts, and another flesh of birds, and another of fishes.
1Co 15:40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.
1Co 15:41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars; for one star differeth from another star in glory.
1Co 15:42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
1Co 15:43 it is sown in dishonor; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
1Co 15:44 it is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.
However, I don't see it here. Yes there is the citing of a spiritual body that pertains to men after the reward, but, prior to that the focus is on contrasts and comparisons between unrelated species. I do not see that the celestial bodies and earthly bodies are any different. The fact that the term "celestial" is used in verse 40 ( in this trans. or "heavenly") before the list of comparisons are finished and not "spiritual" seems to me to support the simple progression of the passage. It does not say that some men will be one way and some another, but, the idea seems to be "men", once they have drunk from the tree of life (at whatever time or age that happens for each) will be "spiritual". At this point I would have to question if the "life's water" has different effects on different people, although I would never put God in a box.
Your thoughts or corrections?
It will be nice to meet your father. This spring we passed the anniversary of Gina's father's passing which started me on this journey again.
Your Brother,
Chris
I actually tried to post this earlier and my server went down. I will comment on your recent posts later.
First, let preface this this by saying that I would never dogmatize any statement concerning the resurrection due to our incapacity to fathom all that may be entailed, however, I think that some scriptures on one or more sides may be being misrepresented in order to further their particular cause. These are my current interpretations of these three sets.
Joh 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except one be born anew, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
Joh 3:4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter a second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
Joh 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except one be born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God!
Joh 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
In this account Jesus is speaking to a reknown Jew, who recognized by tradition the importance of lineage-think the Levites...etc...to the Jews. Obviously the water represents repentance and the spirit represents newness so these two ideas with being "born again" represent the shedding of any fleshly importance of lineage and becoming a new creation able to ENTER or even SEE the Kingdom of God. Also...
Joh 3:8 The wind bloweth where it will, and thou hearest the voice thereof, but knowest not whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
In relation to the previous scriptures, this does not, to me mean that the man born of spirit (at that time and in our time, not in the time to come after death) is not ethereal and "changed" already as pertains to the last trump, but, no longer puts importance on lineage( cometh) and the destinations( goeth) that that would normally afford them in an earthly way due to lineage.
Second set is...
1Co 15:49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
1Co 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
Bearing the image of the heavenly?---All I can do is speculate and be excited, but I would not be so bold as to say it cannot be a mixture or any other word since I wonder what would happen to a resurrected one in a perfect body who is then completely filled to the brim with Holy Spirit(hmm?). As to "flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God", I think that after all Paul's lessons on works alongside the previous examination, I believe that the flesh concerns one's "works" and one's blood deals with lineage. The key word here is INHERIT. If it said these would not ENTER then the flesh and blood might take on a more "physical" aspect, but, to inherit something is more of legal or supposed event as opposed to a physical something that is or is not limited to a physical body. Thus the terms "inherit" and "lineage" harmonize better to me.
This next scripture is used constantly by those who would see two classes of Christians, and by that I mean those who are found "DESERVING" of an ethereal, heavenly body like those of the angels (which of course I would not argue too strongly against), and those poor pathetic souls who will be fortunate enough to have a physical body that won't die.
This scripture seems to be used quite frequently to prove that some men will have one type of resurrection while others have a different kind...
1Co 15:39 All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one flesh of men, and another flesh of beasts, and another flesh of birds, and another of fishes.
1Co 15:40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.
1Co 15:41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars; for one star differeth from another star in glory.
1Co 15:42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
1Co 15:43 it is sown in dishonor; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
1Co 15:44 it is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.
However, I don't see it here. Yes there is the citing of a spiritual body that pertains to men after the reward, but, prior to that the focus is on contrasts and comparisons between unrelated species. I do not see that the celestial bodies and earthly bodies are any different. The fact that the term "celestial" is used in verse 40 ( in this trans. or "heavenly") before the list of comparisons are finished and not "spiritual" seems to me to support the simple progression of the passage. It does not say that some men will be one way and some another, but, the idea seems to be "men", once they have drunk from the tree of life (at whatever time or age that happens for each) will be "spiritual". At this point I would have to question if the "life's water" has different effects on different people, although I would never put God in a box.
Your thoughts or corrections?
It will be nice to meet your father. This spring we passed the anniversary of Gina's father's passing which started me on this journey again.
Your Brother,
Chris
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