Hi Chris,
You wrote:
Why is this verse here?
Rev 16:15 (Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walked naked, and they see his shame.)
Just before the gathering to Armegeddon and the seventh vial? I am trying to harmonize this with the sign of Matt 24.
I might still be trying to bullet-proof the idea that the elect are gathered at the onset of the seventh trump.
Why is that verse there? Well, because it’s supposed to be of course! LOL.
But honestly, you say that you are trying to solidify the thought that the ELECT are taken at the onset of the seventh trumpet. I feel that we need to start by asking; are there CHRISTIANS still on the earth even up to and through Armageddon? As the verse you pointed out states, YES there are still Christians on the earth, even through Armageddon.
BUT, are the ELECT still on the earth? THAT is the question. It might sound very ‘Bible Studentish’ for me to say so, but just as not ‘all Israel is Israel’, not all Christians are the elect. It is the ELECT that are gathered at the onset of the seventh trumpet, but this does not mean that there aren’t still Christians upon the earth and those who have turned to God in repentance. So indeed these are still instructed to watchfulness right up until the second coming.
Consider this, and this might seem a little complex, but I feel that it’s the key to all this:
And ye yourselves like unto men that wait for their lord, when he will return from the wedding; that when he cometh and knocketh, they may open unto him immediately. Blessed [are] those servants, whom the lord when he cometh shall find watching: verily I say unto you, that he shall gird himself, and make them to sit down to meat, and will come forth and serve them. And if he shall come in the second watch, or come in the third watch, and find [them] so, blessed are those servants. And this know, that if the goodman of the house had known what hour the thief would come, he would have watched, and not have suffered his house to be broken through. Be ye therefore ready also: for the Son of man cometh at an hour when ye think not.
(Luk 12:36-40)
Here we have exhortations to watch for our Lord’s return. Now, the first question is, WHO is he talking to here. Verse 22 states that Jesus is addressing his ‘disciples’. Some people seem to equate the ‘disciples’ with the twelve apostles, but that is not the case. Many of his ‘disciples’ eventually forsook him, or stumbled at one or more of teachings. The disciples consisted of the large numbers of crowds who followed Jesus and heard him teach.
So, this is a very general exhortation to watchfulness directed toward the DISCIPLES.
Now, what are they promised as a reward for this watchfulness? This is important:
Blessed [are] those servants, whom the lord when he cometh shall find watching: verily I say unto you, that he shall gird himself, and make them to sit down to meat, and will come forth and serve them.
Notice he comes forth, and FEEDS THEM.
Now something very interesting happens. Right after Jesus says this Peter asks:
Then Peter said unto him, Lord, speakest thou this parable unto us, or even to all?
(Luk 12:41)
I think Chris that Peter is asking the same question that you are asking, ‘Lord, why is this verse here?’ Something seems out of place in Peter’s mind, or he would not be asking if this information was directed to him, or the crowd in general. I believe that Jesus’ answer clears up all the confusion:
And the Lord said, Who then is that faithful and wise steward, whom [his] lord shall make ruler over his household, to give them their portion of meat in due season? Blessed [is] that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing. Of a truth I say unto you, that he will make him ruler over all that he hath.
(Luk 12:42-44)
Here Jesus introduces a faithful and wise steward. What is this servant promised? To be a RULER over all that is the Lord’s, and to FEED the others. Notice that to the previous group there was a promise that they would be fed, but no peomise that they would RULE. However, there is a faithful and wise group who does the feeding, but are made rulers as well.
Now if we look at Revelation 7 and the 144,00 vs.the ‘great crowd’ I think we see this very distinction. The 144,000 represent the very elect of God, and the ‘great crowd’ represents the masses of ‘disciples’ which are not of the elect. Now notice what it says about the great crowd in 7:14-17:
And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them. They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat. For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.
(Rev 7:14-17)
Notice, the Lamb shall FEED THEM. This was that which was promised to the ‘disciples’ who were told to watch. This is what prompted Peter’s question ‘Lord, do you say this to US or to all?’
The great crowd are those who are FED. However, there was to be another group who would do the FEEDING and would be made rulers over all.
So there are two groups here… disciples in general on the one hand who are FED, and the elect rulers on the other hand who do the FEEDING.
So, in reply to the question ‘why is this verse here’, we must answer – Because clearly there are still Christians and disciples on the earth at that time. However this has nothing to do with those who were deemed the elect which I believe are represented by the 144,000 seen already with Jesus in Revelation 14 AFTER the seventh trumpet blows, but BEFORE the bowls are poured out.
Hope this helps
--David
You wrote:
Why is this verse here?
Rev 16:15 (Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walked naked, and they see his shame.)
Just before the gathering to Armegeddon and the seventh vial? I am trying to harmonize this with the sign of Matt 24.
I might still be trying to bullet-proof the idea that the elect are gathered at the onset of the seventh trump.
Why is that verse there? Well, because it’s supposed to be of course! LOL.
But honestly, you say that you are trying to solidify the thought that the ELECT are taken at the onset of the seventh trumpet. I feel that we need to start by asking; are there CHRISTIANS still on the earth even up to and through Armageddon? As the verse you pointed out states, YES there are still Christians on the earth, even through Armageddon.
BUT, are the ELECT still on the earth? THAT is the question. It might sound very ‘Bible Studentish’ for me to say so, but just as not ‘all Israel is Israel’, not all Christians are the elect. It is the ELECT that are gathered at the onset of the seventh trumpet, but this does not mean that there aren’t still Christians upon the earth and those who have turned to God in repentance. So indeed these are still instructed to watchfulness right up until the second coming.
Consider this, and this might seem a little complex, but I feel that it’s the key to all this:
And ye yourselves like unto men that wait for their lord, when he will return from the wedding; that when he cometh and knocketh, they may open unto him immediately. Blessed [are] those servants, whom the lord when he cometh shall find watching: verily I say unto you, that he shall gird himself, and make them to sit down to meat, and will come forth and serve them. And if he shall come in the second watch, or come in the third watch, and find [them] so, blessed are those servants. And this know, that if the goodman of the house had known what hour the thief would come, he would have watched, and not have suffered his house to be broken through. Be ye therefore ready also: for the Son of man cometh at an hour when ye think not.
(Luk 12:36-40)
Here we have exhortations to watch for our Lord’s return. Now, the first question is, WHO is he talking to here. Verse 22 states that Jesus is addressing his ‘disciples’. Some people seem to equate the ‘disciples’ with the twelve apostles, but that is not the case. Many of his ‘disciples’ eventually forsook him, or stumbled at one or more of teachings. The disciples consisted of the large numbers of crowds who followed Jesus and heard him teach.
So, this is a very general exhortation to watchfulness directed toward the DISCIPLES.
Now, what are they promised as a reward for this watchfulness? This is important:
Blessed [are] those servants, whom the lord when he cometh shall find watching: verily I say unto you, that he shall gird himself, and make them to sit down to meat, and will come forth and serve them.
Notice he comes forth, and FEEDS THEM.
Now something very interesting happens. Right after Jesus says this Peter asks:
Then Peter said unto him, Lord, speakest thou this parable unto us, or even to all?
(Luk 12:41)
I think Chris that Peter is asking the same question that you are asking, ‘Lord, why is this verse here?’ Something seems out of place in Peter’s mind, or he would not be asking if this information was directed to him, or the crowd in general. I believe that Jesus’ answer clears up all the confusion:
And the Lord said, Who then is that faithful and wise steward, whom [his] lord shall make ruler over his household, to give them their portion of meat in due season? Blessed [is] that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing. Of a truth I say unto you, that he will make him ruler over all that he hath.
(Luk 12:42-44)
Here Jesus introduces a faithful and wise steward. What is this servant promised? To be a RULER over all that is the Lord’s, and to FEED the others. Notice that to the previous group there was a promise that they would be fed, but no peomise that they would RULE. However, there is a faithful and wise group who does the feeding, but are made rulers as well.
Now if we look at Revelation 7 and the 144,00 vs.the ‘great crowd’ I think we see this very distinction. The 144,000 represent the very elect of God, and the ‘great crowd’ represents the masses of ‘disciples’ which are not of the elect. Now notice what it says about the great crowd in 7:14-17:
And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them. They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat. For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.
(Rev 7:14-17)
Notice, the Lamb shall FEED THEM. This was that which was promised to the ‘disciples’ who were told to watch. This is what prompted Peter’s question ‘Lord, do you say this to US or to all?’
The great crowd are those who are FED. However, there was to be another group who would do the FEEDING and would be made rulers over all.
So there are two groups here… disciples in general on the one hand who are FED, and the elect rulers on the other hand who do the FEEDING.
So, in reply to the question ‘why is this verse here’, we must answer – Because clearly there are still Christians and disciples on the earth at that time. However this has nothing to do with those who were deemed the elect which I believe are represented by the 144,000 seen already with Jesus in Revelation 14 AFTER the seventh trumpet blows, but BEFORE the bowls are poured out.
Hope this helps
--David
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