The Prophetic Timeline

Hi Again,

I also created a new MS Word Document format of the timeline chart. This prints out MUCH nicer, even in portrait format - plus you don't need to splice it together because it's one section per page.

The link to download the file is on the chart page.

--David

One Hundred Scriptural Arguments for a Unitarian Faith - The Harvest Herald

Hi guys,

I don't know if you saw this article I put on the web site.

This is very old, from the unitarians of the 1800's. These are excellent, and to me, overwhelming reasons to reject the trinity.

--David

David,

Good job updating the prophecy charts! If I landscape my page setup, I can print them out, no problem.

Thanks,

Chris

Matt 24 again...

Actually, one more amendment to these thoughts....
Mat 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world for a testimony unto all the nations; and then shall the end come.

The gospel of the kingdom getting preaches to the whole world goes beyond the 1000yr reign, since Christ's reign last beyond the 1000yr reign into the succeeding age, when the nations get "healed". Jesus must reign until the last enemy DEATH is overcome.

That leads me to another thought about patterns...we have discussed the pattern of the four abominations; how the first one marked a period of reform while the second brought Judgment. The third brought about reform and the expected fourth will bring about Judgment. The Jewish dispensation ended around the time of Christ and then the gospel was available to the whole world. If, per our discussions,we have the recovery of "spiritual" Israel during the 1000yr reign, THEN, Israel is turned outward into the nations, we have a similar pattern.

Moses brings the Law...
the Jewish age...a people set apart

Christ comes to earth with the Good News...
the church (gentiles included) age

Christ returns...
1000 yr reign in which God's people are set apart again (including those of the Gentiles who have beeen adopted)

God lives with His people
The next age for the healing of the world

Does this make sense to you?

Chris

Matthew 24
Maybe this one is a little better. In case you guys happened to not read the original one, the premise is to get to a discussion of the Great Tribulation, but with regards to the whole of Matthew 24 and the possible parallel applications to 70 ad as well as the history between 70 ad and/through present day.

Mat 24:1 And Jesus went out from the temple, and was going on his way; and his disciples came to him to show him the buildings of the temple.
Mat 24:2 But he answered and said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
Mat 24:3 And as he sat on the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?
Mat 24:4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man lead you astray.
Mat 24:5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am the Christ; and shall lead many astray.

I think it safe to say that all false teaching can find its way back to Gnostics as they were the first to claim a more specific message from Christ. Their false teachings (even though deemed heretical) are the basis for much of the Catholic teachings which even the Reformers did not eradicate. A more accurate application would be to the Man of Sin, however.
Mat 24:6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumors of wars; see that ye be not troubled: for these things must needs come to pass; but the end is not yet.
Mat 24:7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom; and there shall be famines and earthquakes in divers places.
One view is the situation preceding the fall of Jerusalem in 70 AD, but, a broader application to the six trumpets of Revelation seems prudent.Mat 24:8 But all these things are the beginning of travail.
The use of the word "travail" here ( as in birthpang) to me, supports the fact of repititious fulfillment of certain prophetic elements.
Mat 24:9 Then shall they deliver you up unto tribulation, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all the nations for my name's sake.
These verses seem to apply to the persecutions of the Christians by Romans as well as later by the "man of sin". It is easy to apply these to the Great Tribulation, but, as we see, there are other events that precede the GT.
Mat 24:10 And then shall many stumble, and shall deliver up one another, and shall hate one another.
Could apply to the Great Apostasy of the Dark Ages with present day ramifications.
Mat 24:11 And many false prophets shall arise, and shall lead many astray.
The Man of sin is one false prophet, but, the divisions of Protestantism alone, as well as the rise of Islam could be represented here. I would not discount a point at the False Prophet of Revelation.
Mat 24:12 And because iniquity shall be multiplied, the love of the many shall wax cold.
Obviously, a present day observation.Mat 24:13 But he that endureth to the end, the same shall be saved.
Dan 12:11 And from the time that the continual burnt-offering shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand and two hundred and ninety days.
Dan 12:12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.
An application with the verses from Daniel place the timeline squarely in the time immediately preceding and into the "coming of the Son of Man".
Mat 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world for a testimony unto all the nations; and then shall the end come.
I feel this applies to the 1000yr reign itself and BEYOND. Since this verse wraps up the timeline of events, Jesus then specifies what will be the end of the Jewish dispensation (70 A. D.) , but, more importantly the end of the current dispensation..
Mat 24:15 When therefore ye see the abomination of desolation, which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (let him that readeth understand),
An open invitation by God to those at the "endtimes" to apply these warnings to themselves and not solely to the events of 70 AD as will be shown. Mat 24:16 then let them that are in Judaea flee unto the mountains:
Mat 24:17 let him that is on the housetop not go down to take out things that are in his house:
Mat 24:18 and let him that is in the field not return back to take his cloak.
Mat 24:19 But woe unto them that are with child and to them that give suck in those days!
Mat 24:20 And pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on a sabbath:
Mat 24:21 for then shall be great tribulation, such as hath not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, nor ever shall be.
The "tribulations" against God's people have all had a common violent theme with obvious persecutions, but, what if the "hath not been from the beginning of the world until now" means that this pattern will be different than all others in that a more crafty seductive attack on the Christian lifestyle and value that corresponds with the war on the Two Witnesses, which would also make these warnings all the more applicable in our time.Mat 24:22 And except those days had been shortened, no flesh would have been saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
Firstly, trials and tribulations have always been around God's people and the fact that he here speaks of the tribulation actually coming to a halt lest noone be saved, puts this specified tribulation period at the end. Secondly, comparing the "lukewarmness" of the age and the possibility that this is a more spiritual tribulation, all we have to do is look at the world we live in to see how very ineffective "Christianity" is becoming, thus, if not for the very elect, no one could be "saved".
Mat 24:23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is the Christ, or, Here; believe it not.
Mat 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders; so as to lead astray, if possible, even the elect.
This "signs and wonders of false prophets" seems to me to point directly of the False Prophet who doth signs and wonders of Revelation, so yet another reference to this present time period. The system promoted by the present day False Prophet makes it easier to understand how living in this day and age with all the temptation and self-living as well as the blatant promotion of alternate religions and lifestyles could even lead the elect astray.
Mat 24:25 Behold, I have told you beforehand.
Mat 24:26 If therefore they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the wilderness; go not forth: Behold, he is in the inner chambers; believe it not.
Mat 24:27 For as the lightning cometh forth from the east, and is seen even unto the west; so shall be the coming of the Son of man.
Mat 24:28 Wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
Mat 24:29 But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: Religion will be darkened. Compare events of Revelation 11.
Mat 24:30 and then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Again Rev. 10&11.
Mat 24:31 And he shall send forth his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. @ Day 1290-1?
Mat 24:32 Now from the fig tree learn her parable: when her branch is now become tender, and putteth forth its leaves, ye know that the summer is nigh;
Mat 24:33 even so ye also, when ye see all these things, know ye that he is nigh, even at the doors.
Mat 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all these things be accomplished.
Mat 24:35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.
Mat 24:36 But of that day and hour knoweth no one, not even the angels of heaven, neither the Son, but the Father only.
Mat 24:37 And as were the days of Noah, so shall be the coming of the Son of man.
Mat 24:38 For as in those days which were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark,
Mat 24:39 and they knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall be the coming of the Son of man.
The fact that the COMING of the Son of Man is what takes everyone by surprise as well as that his coming doesn't take place until the period of the vials may support the fact that the Great Tribulation also is not easily recognized to any who aren't diligently watching. When he comes, will he even find faith?Mat 24:40 Then shall two man be in the field; one is taken, and one is left:
Mat 24:41 two women shall be grinding at the mill; one is taken, and one is left.
Mat 24:42 Watch therefore: for ye know not on what day your Lord cometh.
Mat 24:43 But know this, that if the master of the house had known in what watch the thief was coming, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken through.
Mat 24:44 Therefore be ye also ready; for in an hour that ye think not the Son of man cometh.
Mat 24:45 Who then is the faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath set over his household, to give them their food in due season?
Mat 24:46 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.
Blessed is he who is found watching for his master to COME.
Mat 24:47 Verily I say unto you, that he will set him over all that he hath.
Mat 24:48 But if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord tarrieth;
Mat 24:49 and shall begin to beat his fellow-servants, and shall eat and drink with the drunken;
Mat 24:50 the lord of that servant shall come in a day when he expecteth not, and in an hour when he knoweth not,
Mat 24:51 and shall cut him asunder, and appoint his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be the weeping and the gnashing of teeth.
The weeping/gnashing of teeth is correspondent with the vials, so wouldn't someone with the opportunity to be a faithful slave recognize a violent, outward persecution of Christians that preceded the vials? This is why I have the notion that the Great Tribulation may be a more spiritual event though there will be an obvious marker in the abomination of desolation/mark of the beast to those seeking and watching. This marker will identify the 1260 days of the Great Tribulation of the likes we have never seen that will nullify the power of the holy ones.

Chris

Re-evaluating my own BLOG on Matt: 24

I tried to write the previous post without referencing David's timeline ( for no good reason, I just got carried away). But, anyway...I think I agree that the initial verses of 4 and 5 do refer to the Papacy or Man of Sin( although the gnostics are still to blame for much of the false doctrine that the Man of Sin supported).

Also, the subsequent verses having application to the trumpets versus the seals. Afterward it kind of gets back on track. Sort of.

As David and I have discussed, the preterist view, as well as aspects of the futurist view aren't entirely accurate, but, aspects aren't necessarily false, either. Why do the preterists want to limit prophecy to only one timeframe? Likewise with the futurists? The fact that there was an abomination of desolation FULFILLED in Antiochus Epiphanes and a second one fulfilled in 70 ad gives creedance to the fact that prophesies can have multiple applications and timeline fulfillments. Why do we have to stop at 70 ad or wait until some future time only?

Ecc 1:9 That which hath been is that which shall be; and that which hath been done is that which shall be done: and there is no new thing under the sun.

More later.

Chris

The Prophetic Timeline

Hello you two,

Here is the latest revision of the 'timeline'.

As you may remember I posted a version of this a few weeks ago and then quickly discovered that it revealed a problem.

This one may still contain inconsistencies that need to be worked out. Your comments are welcome as always.

--David

Hey Guys,

I tried to make this blog a little easier on the eyes. I originally set it up on my laptop computer because my main monitor was in for reapir. I got my monitor back only to find that it looked completely different (and I didn't like it)!

Let me know if this is better for you, or if the text needs to be bigger, background lighter etc.

Love you both,
David

PS. If either of you have sent me mail during the past few days I may not have received it.. I'm having issues with my service provider.

ON THE SNATCHING AWAY OF THE ELECT

Hello Chris and Rhonda,

I agree with Chris that these are interesting thoughts about the resurrection. I know that in some ways this is the same as the JW view – that there is no ‘snatching away’ of the elect, but that during Christ’s presence those of the elect who die are caught up without sleeping as opposed to those who had to sleep in death prior to Christ’s presence.

Over the years I have considered this matter carefully and for now I’m going to say that I respectfully disagree with that particular view.

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1Co 15:51-52
(51) Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
(52) In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

Notice, it is at the last trump that both the dead are raised and the living are changed. Both of these events are said to take place ‘in a moment, in a twinkling of an eye’. These verses do not seem to me to indicate that some would be changed instantly upon DEATH, but that some would not die at all. It seems clear to me from this passage that ‘in a moment, a twinkling of an eye’ that the dead are raised first, and the LIVING (not some who die and don’t sleep) are changed. To my mind these verses militate against the idea of some dying and going immediately to heaven over a long parousia.

Again, notice the import of the passage - Jehovah's Witnesses read this passage as 'We are all changed in the twinkling of an eye, the dead first, then those who are alive during the parousia are changed instantly as they die'. But this is not what the passage says:

'We shall not all sleep but we shall all be changed'... WHEN?

'In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, AT THE LAST TRUMPET.'

This passage simply does not denote a succession of 'eye twinkling events' but that the entire resurrection and change, both of the living and the dead takes place suddenly 'at the last trumpet'.

To my mind the contrast here is clearly between those who are alive at Christ's return and those who are dead, not between those who die before the parousia and those who die during the parousia.

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1Th 4:15-18
(15) For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive [and] remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
(16) For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
(17) Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
(18) Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

Here we see again the same ‘trumpet’, but notice from the previous passage that the events of this trumpet take place ‘in the twinkling of an eye’ – the events are ‘In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye AT THE LAST TRUMPET’.

And notice again that the thought here is certainly not that all have to die, but that some are still LIVING when this trumpet sounds. It is the living - ‘we who are ALIVE and remain’ - that are caught up. Where is there a hint in these verses that all would have to die? To my mind they convey the very opposite thought.

I know that the Pastor Russell and the JW’s would say that the events of this trumpet occur over an extended period of time, but that is not the issue here: ALL are changed ‘in a moment, in a twinkling of an eye’ AT the last trumpet.

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Rhonda you suggested that you do not believe in a ‘whisking away’ of the elect. I am no fan of sensational scenarios, but in this case I feel that the thought is in the text.

Caught Up

NT:726

harpazo (har-pad'-zo); from a derivative of NT:138; to sieze (in various applications):


KJV - catch (away, up), pluck, pull, take (by force).
(From Strong’s Lexicon)

NT:726

harpazoo;

to seize, carry off by force: ti (Matt 12:29)

to seize on, claim for oneself eagerly: Matt 11:12

to snatch out or away: Matt 13:19 ; ti ek cheiros tinos, John 10:28 f; tina ek puros, proverbial, to rescue from the danger of destruction, Jude 23 to seize and carry off speedily, John 6:15; Acts 23:10;

used of divine power transferring a person marvellously and swiftly from one place to another, to snatch or catch away: Acts 8:39;

passive, Rev 12:5
(from Thayer's Greek Lexicon)


These words do not indicate the slow dying off of the elect over a long parousia but a swift and violent snatching away by force. Whether this seems sensational or not, the sudden, violent snatching away of the LIVING ELECT is the thought conveyed by these words.

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Mat 24:29-32
(29) Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
(30) And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
(31) And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
(32) Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer [is] nigh:

Again, notice the time elements involved in these verses…

IMMEDIATELY after the tribulation mentioned the following events are to occur:

1) The sign of the Son of Man in heaven causing the tribes of the earth to mourn
2) Then they see Jesus coming
3) The elect are gathered – again with the sound of a great trumpet

It is at this trumpet that resurrection takes place ‘in a moment, in a twinkling of an eye’. These passages simply do not allow time, nor do they (to my mind) give the sense of the elect dying off over a long parousia.

Notice that the ‘elect’ are not gathered until a time ‘immediately after the tribulation’. Notice how it follows the sign of the Son of Man, and the mourning of the tribes of the earth as they see Him coming. These verses simply do not speak of an extended period of time but of a very brief period at the very end of this age.

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Chris has asked how such a snatching away could escape the notice of the world and has offered several very logical scenarios. I would like to add one more thought to that.

Chris and Rhonda, I believe very strongly that the ‘elect’ still living will be so few when Jesus returns that – on a worldwide scale- their disappearance will cause little reason for alarm and maybe will result in a few missing persons cases. We are after all taking here about the ‘very elect’. Jesus himself said over and over that the elect would be few – that many would strive to enter in at the narrow gate and would not be able to.

Luk 18:8
(8) … Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?

Why did Jesus ask this question? We live in a time of multi-million dollar ‘Christian’
Ministries. A vast majority of the American population claims to be Christian – yet Jesus still asks this question; will he find faith on earth?

My dear Brother and Sister – I do not know who the elect are. I certainly would not claim to be one of them, although I try to press toward that goal and prize. I do feel though that whoever the elect are will be few in number when our Lord returns – it is my belief that their disappearance will go mostly unnoticed by the world in general and cause little alarm.


--David

Hey Rhonda,

Very interesting thoughts. Especially about the last of the elect dying before the Resurrection, or at least in close proximity to it since the Seventh Trumpet has to begin blowing first....gonna have to muse on that a while. Thanks.

On a separate note: Food for thought/Current Events.

USA Today has an article today reporting China's drastic "Sexual Revolution" which has been accredited to the growing influence of "Western Civilization" in Asia.

Rev 18:9 And the kings of the earth, who committed fornication and lived wantonly with her, shall weep and wail over her, when they look upon the smoke of her burning,

Rev 19:2 for true and righteous are his judgments; for he hath judged the great harlot, her that corrupted the earth with her fornication, and he hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand.

Chris

Hi David,

My mind works in the "big picture" sort of, so that's why I am always speculating in that by trying to imagine as many scenarios as possible, yet based on the facts, I can find reason from the Bible prophecies to my own mind. Of course my faith is in the Bible even when my imagination fails, but, speculating gives me some sense of peace.

Having said that, it is difficult not to take these "taken" verses at literal apprearance, in that some wicked people will be "whisked" away to the place where a literal battle is taking place..etc... which would also look similar to the "whisking" away of the elect giving in a weird way creedance to the "rapture" stuff.

If "whisking" were even the proper term, I would give it to the elect's gathering at the seventh trump since now I see that a person could be taken in Judgment where he sits.. My mind has not let me fathom a way that the elect could be resurrected and changed and gathered and the entire world not take serious notice in the previous timeline, but, the new timeline gives me possibilities....

The living elect will have been virtually irradicated or imprisoned by the time the "sign" appears. Given the reference to the meeting in the air, those who are "raised" from the dead first could easily be raised not visible(given they will see the Lord as he is--and he hasn't made himself manifest to the world at this time) or at least hidden and those living/changed might not create that big a stir if the numbers have been dwindled; they will have power at ths time.

This idea still stretched the boundaries of notice a bit, until the revised timeline. Given that the "tenth" of the city falls before the seventh trumpet, accompanied by "earthquakes" and a large death toll already, there will be much going on to distract the world from the elect and even give reason for disappearances. With the possibilities of the seven vials that I've guessed about, it is reasonable to assume, even statistically, that not every single person in an attacked nation would be immediately affected or even killed even if the death toll is massive. Much more if the Father is actually via angels..etc..protecting the ones "left" who have turned to Him due to the sign or tribulation itself.

As I said, it is sometimes hard to not imagine bad people suddenly flying through the air to a location before reasoning it out, but, taken in Judgment makes more sense as that this term can apply to individuals as well as nations and does not have to be at the same time, which the elect gathering implies. It's easy enough to pick up stories of a tree falling on one person and killing or hurting him while the Christian next to him saying he had been spared by God. How much moreso could this actually be the case in that "day".

Thoughts if you dare?

Chris the Speculator

Hi Chris,

Well, the parable of the wheat and the tares is pretty general, but i think that the time in which the 'tares' are gathered is given in the text..

Mat 13:38-42
(38) The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked [one];
(39) The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the age; and the reapers are the angels.
(40) As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
(41) The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
(42) And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

So, we would look for the gathering the tares at the end of the age, which is given in the figure of a 'harvest'. Revelation uses the same figure... the gathering of the tares is carried out by the events of the harvest which takes place at the end of the age. I understand this to mean the bowl judgments, armageddon, etc

If you go here:


http://www.harvestherald.com/challenge.htm#matt1340

then scroll down a bit, there is a small comparison chart in the far right column comparing the language of the 'wheat and tares' parable to that of Revelation. It seems to me that Evangelicals are so busy trying to prove that the tares go to hell that they totally missed the proper application.

The Gathering of the Wicked

David,

Please check this timeline surrounding the Two Witnesses and the Seventh Trumpet:

Witnesses overcome ( War ends) Abomination set up
Lie dead for 3 1/2 years

Sign of the Son of man appears/Witnesses validated
"Earthquakes" and a European Power falls
....both within 30 day period of time....

Seventh Trumpet begins to blow
Elect are gathered
Six vials poured out
Return of Christ with the elect
Seventh vial poured out
....within 45 day period

1000yr reign begins.

At what point in here do you suspect the wicked "tares" are gathered...is it here?
Rev 16:13 And I saw coming out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet, three unclean spirits, as it were frogs:
Rev 16:14 for they are spirits of demons, working signs; which go forth unto the kings of the whole world, to gather them together unto the war of the great day of God, the Almighty.
Rev 16:15 (Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walked naked, and they see his shame.)
Rev 16:16 And they gathered them together into the place which is called in Hebrew Har-magedon.

...or elsewhere, or do you have any speculations about this occurrence? Are the Gospel accounts possibly figurative of individuals coming into Judgment?

Can you give some thoughts on this or at least a platform for discussion?

Chris

Hey David,

Yes, that 31-35 apply to the Romans and the subsequent "man of sin" are unarguable. It was the sudden extra-prophetic jump that I wanted to solidify. The thought of the four abominations (Antiochus' being the first, but a type and foreshadowing of the one Jesus foretold), the reference to the "fortress" and now the fact that Jesus and Paul both referred to the Abomination as a future event have pretty well nailed it for me. Thanks.

Chris

Hi Chris,

Well that's very interesting. Honestly I hadn't noticed the part about the fortress before, but it makes sense and seems to make the interpretation more concrete. Thank you.

I had in mind that Jesus had described the 'abomination of desolation' spoken of by Daniel as a future event. Of course this doesn't preclude Daniel 11:31 from referring to Antiochus... in that case Jesus could have meant 'what happened back then will happen again'. As I stated before, I do believe that there are four 'abominations of desolation', three past, and one still future. But the events then do have at least SOME reference to a time beyond that of Jesus, and so surely our application of this passage to the Romans is not entirely in error.

My other reasoning is that the 'man of sin', the 'king that does according to his will (Dan 11:36) is something that Paul also put into the future - rising on the ruins of the Roman empire. To my mind this is the Papacy without dispute. It does not seem logical to me that Daniel would jump from Antiochus to the Papacy. It seems more likely to me that the Romans are introduced first at verse 31.

I believe this was also the position of commentators Adam Clarke, Isaac Newton, and many others.

--David

DANIEL 11

Hey David,

I hadn't been able to understand exactly how the verses past 31 could refer solely to the Romans even though they fit the description perfectly. It would appear at first glance that the line of thought would simply continue with Antiochus Epiphanes since he did destroy the temple and set up an abomination of desolation with the Zeus altar. However....

Dan 11:31 And forces shall stand on his part, and they shall profane the sanctuary, even the fortress, and shall take away the continual burnt-offering, and they shall set up the abomination that maketh desolate.

Encarta: This power was eclipsed with the conquest of Jerusalem in 63 BC by the Roman general Pompey the Great. Herod the Great became king of Judea in 37 BC. During his administration, which lasted until 4 BC, Herod rebuilt the temple, constructed a fortress, and enhanced other elements of the city.

.......the temple was rebuilt and the daily sacrifice had been reinstituted, but, it was Herod under Roman occupation who made it a FORTRESS( destroyed in verse 31), which is the identifying mark and timeline application.

Does this harmonize with your reasoning?

Chris

DANIEL 11

Daniel 11 is a difficult chapter. Here are my thoughts:

And now will I shew thee the truth. Behold, there shall stand up yet three kings in Persia…
(Dan 11:2)


We first need to keep in mind that this is the starting point of this prophecy… it started in Daniel’s time. It is my opinion that the prophecy would detail events down to the second coming and resurrection.

But many of these events except for those at the very end have had very specific fulfillments. The verses up to and including verse 30 detail the wars of the Syrians and the Egyptians. Because Israel dwelt between these two warring countries they were directly affected by these wars. There is a principle here – God is interested in informing his people of world events that directly affect them.

Starting at verse 31 - ‘arms shall stand on his part’, I believe that the Romans are introduced. It is they who took away the daily sacrifice and destroyed the temple.

Verses 32-35 document the growing apostasy within the ‘Christianized’ Roman Empire, then beginning at verse 36 the Papal antichrist is introduced with such an explicit description that I do no know how anyone could miss the application.

Note how the positions of ‘king of the north and south’ change roles. There is, I believe, another change beginning at verse 40 - ‘And at the TIME OF THE END’…

It is only from this verse to the end that I feel may have some application to our day; and if not to our day, then some time future.

Whoever, or whatever this ‘king of the north’ is, it will make a rampage through the Middle East, overthrowing many countries, and finally planting itself within Jerusalem. I have found it EXTREMLY INTERESTING that the USA as the ‘new Rome’ has now strategically positioned itself north of Israel, and with all the talk of invading Iran, Syria, etc, all in the name of ‘fighting terror’. At the present we seem to be the only world power capable of carrying out such an extensive military campaign.

Vs 45’… and he shall come to his end, and none shall help him’. Given the present world opinion of our military endeavors, why do these words seem particularly poignant to me?

For you consideration…

--David

Food for Thought,

President Bush says that Iraq is now the central point from which the US and Coalition forces will continue the "War on Terrorism" in the Middle East.

Dan 11:13 And the king of the north shall return, and shall set forth a multitude greater than the former; and he shall come on at the end of the times, even of years, with a great army and with much substance.
Dan 11:14 And in those times there shall many stand up against the king of the south: also the children of the violent among thy people shall lift themselves up to establish the vision; but they shall fall.
Dan 11:15 So the king of the north shall come, and cast up a mound, and take a well-fortified city: and the forces of the south shall not stand, neither his chosen people, neither shall there be any strength to stand.

Would like to discuss this chapter more.

Chris

Rhonda being creative to add to Chris's thoughts...

It would seem that those in the first resurrection might be as many as 1 billion or more people. All the faithful of old, all the faithful who have hoped in Christ. There will be those and the "unrighteous" left on earth when the "Sons of God are revealed." Those resurrected have already "met the Lord in the air" and I perceive that this will be, or already was, a great meeting! All things were discussed and understood for these resurrected ones. The nations will submit to Jesus Christ or they will not be blessed. (Zech 14) Simple! They will "go to the mountain of the Lord" to learn.

No, it won't happen overnight! How could it? Cause and effect is a most wonderful teacher! Unlike in this system, where righteous men are punished under Satan's system--righteous men will be blessed! The President of the USA makes a public address: "My fellow Americans: The Lord has returned. As of today--right now, this government is being surrendered completely and totally to the King of Kings and Lord of Lords!" WOW! (Maybe my imagination is getting the better of me, lol.)

One thing is for certain. Almighty God has the Power, the Wisdom, the Love, and nothing but TIME to accomplish all that He intends to! Who will be the last man standing in opposition to this? I don't think there will be one solitary soul who will want to be called THAT! Every man has tasted evil, and in that day, every man will taste the good in its entirety. Who would possibly want anything but the good?

--Rhonda

Some Chris Creative Thoughts....

There are many who believe in the Millenial reign as a time of instant peace and tranquility wherein everyone worldwide, at the sign of the Son of Man will recognize Christ and merely sit back patiently and wait on an elected teacher to come by and bring the Truth. While I do believe that many will recognize Christ's approach and will turn to waiting for him, since there must be a great multitude who come out of the Tribulation, with all the fragmented doctrine out there, there will hardly be a common set of truths immediately evident that will not need patient instruction and correction. At the onset of the 1000yrs reign the vast preaching work must begin, but, what of those who have to wait until their opportunity for proper teaching? Will those who have lived a lifetime loving Christ, but with unsound doctrine sit idly by, thinking that, although the "rapture" might not have happened as planned, that most everything else was right and continue their "preaching" to a now-enraptured audience? Or could they, at the onset, still hold to some of their teachings and think that, "yes, much calamity has happened(but maybe that wasn't the Great Tribulation or Armegeddon)and we did see and recognize Christ's sign and approach, but, who are these people who profess to be sons of God who are telling us we've had it wrong for so long? Could they be demons who are showing signs to fool even the elect that we must refuse an audience until the Lord does "rapture" us to heaven?" The influence of Satan definitely will be made ineffective, but, can we really expect that all these will simply "get it" at the beginning?

David and I have discussed the possibility that the entire millenial reign is dedicated to "spiritual Israel". Once Israel has been restored, then she is ready to "heal the nations" and "bless all the tribes of the earth" AFTER the 1000yr reign is finished...

Rev 22:15 Without are the dogs, and the sorcerers, and the fornicators, and the murderers, and the idolaters, and every one that loveth and maketh a lie.
Rev 22:16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things for the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, the bright, the morning star.
Rev 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And he that heareth, let him say, Come. And he that is athirst, let him come: he that will, let him take the water of life freely. At the end of the reign!

Yes, the elect will be a relatively small class of people at the onset (even a couple of million is small compared to the population of NYC alone), but, should we discount all those who are familiar with the Christian story or have good hearts? There are the "elect"; those who are invited to the feast to be fed(heareth); and the nations outside. I think it prudent, if this line of thinking is correct, not to assume that the world will be perfected by the end of the reign. There is so much damage to be reversed within the nations known with a Christian history alone, that it seems well that the "nation of Israel" is restored first by the teaching work and judging of the elect, thus fulfilling all the promises of the OT, then, afterwards, we'll have a greater force of priests to heal the world in the age following the 1000yr reign. With many of the other nations carrying on in mortality and calamity or judgment DURING the 1000yr reign, there is more clarity as to how or why the War of Gog and Magog could come about.

This reasoning still supports the complete reconciliation of mankind and the eventual equality and perfection of all, it merely acknowledges a more reasonable pattern that harmonizes with the precedent of history.

Just thinking out loud--or actually quiet and typing;).

Chris

SUN, MOON, and STARS

Hey Rhonda,

David, in his earlier post defined the "darkening" of the celestial bodies as a symbol of calamity or upheaval that directly affects God's people. I have since been studying all the references of the term "sun, moon, and stars"for a possible common definition. The problem with the definition by Russell as being "truth" and 'divine law" is that these terms cannot be applied in every application in the scriptures. The sun itself in one place, or the moon, individually in another might have different applications, but, when they are brought together, I think a common definition might be established, just as the "darkening" of them can have a common meaning. I kept coming back to "religion" as being the only common thread for all the passages that apply, but, even it doesn't completely satisfy. However, you posted that Russell said that the shaking of them applied to the "religious powers" being shaken and I think that is actually the key. Whether the religious powers that be profess to be Christian related or not, what they do and are affected by immediately affects God's true people whether for good or ill.

I'll put in a few references and see if they make sense:

Gen 37:9 And he dreamed yet another dream, and told it to his brethren, and said, Behold, I have dreamed yet a dream: and, behold, the sun and the moon and eleven stars made obeisance to me. Joseph dreamed that what would be the foundation of the religious powers of Israel(identified by the eleven+ one stars) would bow to him--possibly a type to Christ.

Deu 4:19 and lest thou lift up thine eyes unto heaven, and when thou seest the sun and the moon and the stars, even all the host of heaven, thou be drawn away and worship them, and serve them, which Jehovah thy God hath allotted unto all the peoples under the whole heaven. People can worship their religious powers as well--also a reference to worshipping anything or anyone else instead of God.

Psa 148:3 Praise ye him, sun and moon: Praise him, all ye stars of light. Neither the celestial bodies nor the religious powers they may represent are above the Creator

Isa 13:9 Behold, the day of Jehovah cometh, cruel, with wrath and fierce anger; to make the land a desolation, and to destroy the sinners thereof out of it.
Isa 13:10 For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light; the sun shall be darkened in its going forth, and the moon shall not cause its light to shine. At the Day of the Lord the religious powers will be shaken and overthrown.

Jer 31:35 Thus saith Jehovah, who giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, who stirreth up the sea, so that the waves thereof roar; Jehovah of hosts is his name:
Jer 31:36 If these ordinances depart from before me, saith Jehovah, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever. Keep in mind that God has ordained the governments to rule for now ( and there really is no government that does not have something to do with religion) and if/when they all turn away from him there will be judgment.

Mat 24:29 But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: Back to the great upheaval of the religious powers after the tribulation.

Luk 21:25 And there shall be signs in sun and moon and stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, in perplexity for the roaring of the sea and the billows;
Luk 21:26 men fainting for fear, and for expectation of the things which are coming on the world: for the powers of the heavens shall be shaken. More forewarnings.

1Co 15:41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars; for one star differeth from another star in glory. This is the only passage that contains all three terms, but, they do not seem to be grouped together to specify one entity or symbolic group, so I'm not sure this applies to the topic, but, if there is a common thread, I cannot see it at present.

Rev 8:12 And the fourth angel sounded, and the third part of the sun was smitten, and the third part of the moon, and the third part of the stars; that the third part of them should be darkened, and the day should not shine for the third part of it, and the night in like manner. If the terms could merely defined as truth and divine law, then it would be hard to gauge how a third could be smitten, however, as I feel this applies to a particular historic attack on the Holy Roman Empire, Oceacer's seizure of Rome, would definitely apply as an upheaval of a religious power, especially one that affected God's people.

Rev 12:1 And a great sign was seen in heaven: a woman arrayed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars; This takes us back to the first reference and identifies the woman as being identified with the Jewish religious power( 12 stars) from whence Christ came.

Rev 21:23 And the city hath no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine upon it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the lamp thereof is the Lamb.
Rev 21:24 And the nations shall walk amidst the light thereof: and the kings of the earth bring their glory into it.
This scripture does not have the "stars" included, but, we may possibly take a liberty here since there is an immediate reference to the "nations" and their respect to the light. Again if it were merely 'truth and divine law" as "sun and moon" I believe that the fact that truth would not be needed in God's city is not a wise statement. However, maybe this more of a reference to the "religion" aspect or even the "religious power" aspect as that neither would be needed in the city as that God and Christ themselves are the power and there will no longer be ceremonial religion, but, relationship.

Anyway, these are my current thoughts on the matter. If either of you happen upon anything that may support, clarify, modify, or negate this, please let me know.

Love,

Chris

Hi Brothers,

According to Pastor Russell, the sun represents the light of truth (darkened) the moon; Divine Law (absent) and the powers of the heavens shaken represents the religious "powers that be." Of course, the BS's see this already having fulfillment years ago, when the 2 Witnesses, The Old and New Testament prophesied in sackcloth and ashes (were hidden from the people, and the people were persecuted for having any of the scriptures.) They believe the killing of the 2 Witnesses took place during the French Revolution, when literally, after the overthrow of Papacy there, Bibles were thrown into the streets and burned as the people rejoiced over the end of religion's hold on them. This has been my understanding until I began looking at these things a little deeper. I'm not at all discounting this YET. They also believe that the 7th trumpet blew, and Jesus Christ took Kingdom power in 1869--or is it 1879? Something like that. They believe that the plagues are now being poured out on mankind, and that Satan is in the process of being bound; certain tools that he's used being dismantled: the first being The Divine Right of Kings (gone), The Divine Right of Papacy (gone) and another Divine Right that I can't quite remember, lol. Sorry. But Pastor thought that socialism, and the Rights of the People would be the rule of the day, and when that wouldn't be satisfying enough, outright anarchy would break out. They also are looking at the nation of Israel right now; they believe the whole world will come against it.

Someone like Preston Eby, from what I've read so far, sees that the revealing of the Sons of God is taking place. That there will be an extra outpouring of God's spirit (like at Pentecost) that will usher in the Kingdom.

A friend of mine, who is in the Merkobah Mystery Religion, would say that all these symbols in the book of Revelation have nothing to do with world events--but everything to do with unlocking the "seals" inside the person to spiritual awakening--and once that has all taken place will understand "everything". He says that all the prophets went to the mystery schools and therefore used the same symbols to describe these "secret" messages. LOL!

Its all very interesting--and there are no simple solutions, are there? All I can say is that I just don't know what they all mean.

--Rhonda

Yes, that definitely gives us something to work with that might be applicable all the way around. It reminds me of defining "spirit" as "something invisible yet powerful"; the definition is not so broad as to lose relevance yet is not so narrow as to be confining when dealing with spiritual matters.

So, yes, truth was banished from the earth under the sixth seal, but, it was done by or as a result of the 'darkening of the sun and moon,..etc..' which was more an application of the governmental upheaval that affected Christians overall.

So that might give us a more accurate rendering of Rev 8:12 in that the calamity or judgment represented by the attacks on the sun and moon affected a third of the Empire( which professed Christianity while having true Christians within its borders). This also doesn't prevent us a separate definition of "sun, moon, and stars" as that the symbolism of calamity or changing of dispensation concerns the DARKENING or FALLING of the sun and moon..etc...

Rev 21:23 And the city hath no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine upon it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the lamp thereof is the Lamb.
Rev 12:1 And a great sign was seen in heaven: a woman arrayed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars;

What would be your definition of these two references as pertains the sun and moon and stars? Are they in some way identifications of God's people in the midst of a pagan world? Those aspects that make ones shine as God's people, maybe? In the city there is no need of whatever it is since God, himself is there as proof? Or is it simply the pursuit of true worship?

Now shifting to another line of thought!

Chris

THOUGHTS ON SUN, MOON STARS, ETC...

Ok, so I'm a little late...

Chris, as you’ve pointed out, there is a need for consistency in the symbol, but sometimes I think we tend to make these things too hard by looking for something too specific.

To me, it seems this is the same type of problem I had in trying to come to a consistent, succinct definition of ‘lake of fire’ – my mind wanted something very specific. Maybe ‘specific’ isn’t the correct word, ‘narrow’ might be better. My mind tends to want to define these symbols in a very narrow kind of way and it’s sometimes difficult to ‘think outside of the box’, so to speak.

When we look at all the passages dealing with the smiting or the falling of the sun, moon stars, etc, how are we to understand them? Surely not in a literal manner. To take these literally is reduce the Bible to an absurdity. If even ONE star literally fell to the earth the planet would be destroyed completely even before it arrived.

I think what we need to look for in these passages is ‘common denominator’. What do all of these have in common? As you pointed out Chris, I think we need to go for a broader meaning. It seems to me that what these all have in common is calamity or catastrophe on a grand scale WHICH DIRECTLY AFFECTS GOD’S PEOPLE. Beyond that it also in some way seems to be indicative of a change in ‘dispensation’

It is commonly believed that Matthew 24 has a dual application – first to the Jewish nation, and then ultimately to the end of the current age. The smiting of the sun, moon and stars marked the passing on the Jewish economy with great catastrophe, and it will mark the end of this age, also with great catastrophe.

The essential banishment of truth from the Roman Empire also marked a great catastrophe for God’s people and brought down the judgment of God upon the Roman Empire.

So yes Chris, I would agree – I would define these in a broader sense, and if I had to place on the symbol a short definition it would be this - calamity or catastrophe on a grand scale which directly affects God’s people.

--David

Hello Chris and Rhonda,

Oddly enough I've spent the past couple days pondering this whole 'sun and moon and stars' thing.... give me a little bit to collect my thoughts and try to explain... don't worry, I'll try to post it before I go to bed.... which of course might be 4 AM..

Love you both,
David

Hi David,

I am revisiting our conversation on "the sun and moon". Per the sixth seal, a good argument has been presented that the proper meaning to the phrase is "enlightenment and truth". I am having some problems making this the universal meaning.

Rev 8:12 And the fourth angel sounded, and the third part of the sun was smitten, and the third part of the moon, and the third part of the stars; that the third part of them should be darkened, and the day should not shine for the third part of it, and the night in like manner.

In this instance, is one third of "truth" smitten or does this mean one third of an empire or government?

While I agree that under the sixth seal that Elliott missed the point about "Christian Rome" being the judgment on "pagan Rome", is it possible that the term COULD at times mean government, or calamity, or overthrow in general?

The reason I'm on this is trying to sort of line up Matthew 24..
Mat 24:29 But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

I see that the sign of the Son of Man happens next sequentially and if "after" means "after" then it could be determined that the darkening of the sun and moon(upheaval, calamity...etc...) happens "after" the tribulation, when I know that enlightenment or truth is darkened DURING the tribulation as the Witnesses lie dead.

Maybe as far as 'truth and enlightenment" go, it would make better sense to me if the passage in Matthew were to read: Immediately after the tribulation the sun and moon shall have BEEN darkened...

One more instance where I'm not sure that TRUTH applies as a definition is...
Rev 21:23 And the city hath no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine upon it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the lamp thereof is the Lamb.


Anyway, your thoughts would be appreciated, but, if this will be covered in your detailed account, just ignore this one and I'll wait.

Your Brother,

Chris

Hi Chris,

Well I'm no expert with the Greek language, but I have looked into this a bit...

The Greek word for 'after' here is 'meta'... although Strong's shows it can be transated a number of ways, my understanding is that when it is in the accusative case, as in this verse, the word means 'after'.

It seems almost all translations render this 'after' so it seems reasonable that the translation is accurate here.

--David

David,

Can you give your thoughts on this passage...

Mt 24:29 But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

Mainly, the immediately AFTER part. The Greek word for "after" could be taken as "with". Anyway, what are your thoughts on this one phrase?

Chris

THREE QUESTIONS


For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened. ...Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. (Mat 24:21-30)


There are three simple questions that we need to ask ourselves:

1) Is Jesus here referring to the language of Daniel?

... and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation [even] to that same time: (Dan 12:1)

2) Does 'IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE TRIBULATION OF THOSE DAYS' mean what it says?

3) Has the latter part of the cited passage from Matthew 24 come to pass? Has the sign of the Son of Man appeared? Has Jesus come in Power and great glory?

If first two of these questions are answered in the affirmative, and the third in the negative, then the latter portions of Daniel most certainly still apply to our time, or a time yet future.

David