Hi Rhonda,

Well, to me it seems like Daniel 11-12 takes us all the way from the Persain empire to 'the time of the end'.

I realize some scholars (mostly those of the preterist crowd) take this to mean the end of the Jewish dispensation, and that all was fulfilled by 70 A.D. when Jerusalem was detroyed at the hands of Titus.

The problem with this view, as I see it is this: Daniel 12:1 talks about a 'time of trouble' like none since there was a nation. Jesus referred to this too in Matthew 24. But in Daniel 12 we also see that the resurrection is also connected with this time. Did the resurrection also take place in 70 AD?

Daniel 11 shows a continuous chain of events starting with the Persains, detailing the wars of the Selucids and Ptolemies, the Rise of the Romans, the rule of the Papacy, and finally the time of the end. I do not see how it CAN'T have some application to our day. The 'time, times, and half a time' menationed in Revelation is taken from Danied 12, and therefore by inspritation that period is connected to the Christian church - at least in some way.

I have studied the works of those who say that all prophecy was fulfilled by 70 A.D. - including these passages from Daniel. I am not convinced. These will hold to the strictest, most literal sense of the language when it comes to matters of TIME, but regress into the most absurd genaralities when it comes to explaining how some of these things - like the resurrection- actually happened.

I'm reminded of the words of Paul:

2Ti 2:17-18
(17) And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus;
(18) Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.

Jesus said a great tribulation is coming in which if the days were not shortened, no flesh would be saved. The Two Witnesses, whatever they may be, are overcome and killed. The fifth seal tells of another great persecution yet to come. Daniel says that all things are fulfilled when the power of the holy people is shattered. This does not lead me to believe that there is some great preaching work to be done in the period immediately before Jesus returns.

Love ya,
David

Hello Bros,

David, I'm not convinced that the book of Daniel is for our day. The book was sealed until "the time of the end." But Jesus also spoke about the the time of the end being the time of the Jewish system of things. Do you think it had any fulfillment in the first century?

--Rhonda

Hi Brothers,

Look what I found by accident, actually. I was looking for something else entirely when I found this. Problem is, I don't have my soundcard downloaded right now, so I can't watch it! If either of you get a chance, maybe you'll tune in and let me know what its about.

I don't know if you're familiear with Dr. Ernest Martin, but he was once in the COG, a respected Bible scholar who left the church and has written some of the best articles on the truth about freedom from the Law I've every read.

But this is a short video produced by MSNBC based on Dr. Martin's book about the star of Bethlehem:

http://www.askelm.com/video/v020301.htm

Wish I could see it!--Rhonda

Hello you two,

Rhonda you say that you feel there may be a great preaching work associated with this sign - while I wouldnt never rule that out, I wonder about the following verse which I would also connect to the same time frame:

And I heard the man clothed in linen, which [was] upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that [it shall be] for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these [things] shall be finished.
(Dan 12:7)

These words 'scatter the power of the holy people' have also been translated as 'shatter' or 'crush'... There are of course so many details to work out here, but if all things are finished when the 'shattering of the power of the saints' is accomplished, then I'm not too sure how this would tie in with a great preaching work.

Of course all this stands or falls on whether or not these time periods are connected. My current view is that they may be, but I refuse to be dogmatic.

Keep looking up!!

Love you two,
David

Hey Rhonda,

Yes, the astrological sign does seem the more reasonable. It'd have to be something quite unusual, as unusual as the original "star", and while everyone may be speculating what it might be, the believers will have the opportunity to put forth the true meaning to any who would listen. As to being taught that the star was Satan's doing, keep in mind that only the Witnesses believe this to my knowledge. The rest of Christendom considers the original star to be from God.

Love,

Chris

Actually, I shouldn't say that the world wouldn't take, notice. Of course they would! I'm just not sure that the rest of the world would associate it with Christ. I'm sure everyone will eventually be drawn to Christ, but, the sign, I think will mainly be for the elect to know their redemption is near...
Luk 21:27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
Luk 21:28 But when these things begin to come to pass, look up, and lift up your heads; because your redemption draweth nigh.

....and for the Great multitude who come out of the Great Tribulation.

Rev 7:14 And I say unto him, My lord, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they that come of the great tribulation, and they washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

But, the nations don't begin to be healed until after the 1000yr reign, so, that leads me to believe that most of them will not recognize it or reject it until later.

I do wonder if the original star could be seen in the daytime? What do you think?

Chris

Hey Rhonda and David,

Yes, actually the star was the first thing I thought about, but got sidetracked with Ezekiel. A star--especially one like the one at Jesus' birth---I think, however, would be something that only Christians, or at least anyone aquainted with the Christian story, would recognize as a sign of his coming. The rest of the world may take no notice, or again, try to explain it away. Either way, it will have to be something that people will recognize as validation for the Bible.

Love,

Chris

Hi Folks,

Been out of town for a few days here..


These are all excellent thoughts...

Actually Rhonda I hadn't thought of a star appearring, but that seems like a really good possibility.

As Chris and I have talked about, I'm thinking it has to be something visible, in the heavens... I new star suddenly appearing would really shake things up. Many would indeed equate it with the star the appeared at Jesus' birth.

Love you guys,
David

Hello Bros,

Chris, have you thought about the sign that appeared at Jesus' first coming? The star? Apparently, the astrologers from the east recognized it and followed it. Do you think this sign, if visible, could be something astrological?

Also, its interesting that the Catholic Church believes that this sign will be in the sky in the form of a cross. Its also interesting that Jesus said, "...and then all the tribes of the earth will beat themselves in lamentation, and they will see the Son of man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory."

I think this is interesting because in my own bible study I see that whatever this sign will be, it will draw all men, and that there will be no doubt that this is Jesus Christ coming. It also reminds me of where Jesus said that he would be "lifted up" and would "draw all men to himself." I'm not saying that I agree that the sign will be in the shape of a cross, but I do believe that his death on the cross will be the thing that will draw all men. Could it be related to this "sign" and if so, how, I wonder?

--Rhonda

I have a very large "speculation" to present for consideration, or even not. I really just want to get it down. As to the Sign of the Son of Man that will appear in heaven per Matthew 24...

Mat 24:30 and then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

And paralleled with Revelation 11...

Rev 11:11 And after the three days and a half the breath of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them that beheld them.
Rev 11:12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they went up into heaven in the cloud; and their enemies beheld them.

and one more...

Mat 24:27 For as the lightning cometh forth from the east, and is seen even unto the west; so shall be the coming of the Son of man.

Going on the assumption that it will be a visible, supernatural sign in the sky that will somehow validate the Scriptures as true after being put to "death" by the "abomination", I have broadened the search for signs. Throughout the Bible, "signs" come in varying degrees and with different meanings and procedures such as the prophets having to go naked or with yokes on ...etc....or as the plagues in Egypt ( which will be covered by the Vials)....or signs could be symbolized with circumcision or keeping the Sabbath. Needless to say, the spectrum is too wide to narrow down easily.

However, does the "sign of the Son of Man" have to be completely limited to Jesus solely in scripture? What I mean is this, Daniel and Ezekiel were both referred to as "Son of Man" and both witnessed supernatural visions that incorporated seeing "one like a son of man". Ezekiel's however, has always caught my attention for the graphic detail.

Eze 1:1 Now it came to pass in the thirtieth year, in the fourth month, in the fifth day of the month, as I was among the captives by the river Chebar, that the heavens were opened, and I saw visions of God.

Eze 1:4 And I looked, and behold, a windstorm came out of the north, a great cloud, and a fire flashing itself, and a brightness to it all around. And out of its midst, like the color of polished bronze it came, out of the midst of the fire.

Eze 1:26 And above the firmament that was over their heads was the likeness of a throne, as the appearance of a sapphire stone; and upon the likeness of the throne was a likeness as the appearance of a man upon it above.
Eze 1:27 And I saw as it were glowing metal, as the appearance of fire within it round about, from the appearance of his loins and upward; and from the appearance of his loins and downward I saw as it were the appearance of fire, and there was brightness round about him.
Eze 1:28 As the appearance of the bow that is in the cloud in the day of rain, so was the appearance of the brightness round about. This was the appearance of the likeness of the glory of Jehovah. And when I saw it, I fell upon my face, and I heard a voice of one that spake.
Eze 2:1 And he said unto me, Son of man, stand upon thy feet, and I will speak with thee.

The descriptions go on and on. This last part also is very similar to the account with the Witnesses---command to stand up.

It has truly befuddled me to fathom anything that could be constituted a sign in the literal sky that would validate scripture...rainbows are too common and windstorms are also commonplace. It also, based on Matt. 24:27 has to be something that will be easily seen at great distances or at least can venture around as to be seen. If the sign of the "Son of Man" known as Ezekiel that introduces the coming of the Son of Man--Jesus Christ, is something like the sight he saw involving the cherubim, then the only place a world could go to for an identical descriptive account would be the now "dead" Bible, which in turn, would validate it to millions I would suppose.

However; and I'm waiting for an updated timeline from David on the thoughts of separating the advent of the "sign" and the onset of the seventh trumpet, the sign itself( if it is something like described) will be disputed worldwide to anyone other than professed Christians, to be anything other than what it is--the sign of the (Christian) Son of Man. Scientists and philosophers will deem it extra-terrestrial or other religions will claim it as one of their own gods and subsequently religious tension like never before could preface and cause the attacks that make up the Seven Vials. Christians worldwide, especially in Western Civilization will mourn and beat themselves in expectation at having put aside their Christianity and even participating in the betrayals of their loved ones in the Tribulation.

Unfortunately, humans have a tendency to overdo just about everything and I imagine if things played out as such, that the new-found Christians in political power, with the support of millions of "limited-knowledge" Christians will over-zealously and unnecessarily protect their God and his reputation, thus aiding in the gathering to Armegeddon.

Again, COMPLETE SPECULATION bordering on the fictitious. I just have to have options in my own mind. I also acknowledge that it could be nothing like this and end up being more mundane or even more fantastical.

Chris

Hello Rhonda and David,

For interest's sake, here is my answer to anyone backing me in a corner over John 1:1 in support of the Trinity doctrine, using support from a scholar who does support the trinity.

Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Joh 1:1 IN ᾿Εν BEGINNING a̓ρχῇ WAS ἦν THE ὁ WORD Λο´γος, AND κaι` THE ὁ WORD Λο´γος WAS ἦν WITH pρο`ς THE(ONE TRUE) tο`ν GOD Teο´ν, AND κaι` DIVINE/GODLY Teο`ς WAS ἦν THE ὁ WORD Λο´γος.

*Marvin Vincent Word Studies...Notice that Teο`ς is without the "article", which could not have been omitted if he had meant to designate the word as GOD; because in that event, Teο`ς would have been ambiguous; perhaps a God.*
tο`ν Teο´ν is the proper combination of words used to denote "The One True God" or properly, "The God". Had the translator added the article, the translation would definitely be worse as is already reflected upon by Mr. Vincent becoming ὁ Teο`ς or "a god". However, back to Mr. Vincent....

*The predicate is emphatically placed in the propositon before the subject, because of the progress of thought; this being the third and highest statement respecting the Word--climax of the two preceding propositions. The word God, used attributively, maintains the personal distinction between God and the Word, but makes unity of essence and nature to follow the distinction of person, and ascribes to the Word all the attributes of the divine essence.*

While it has been endlessly debated as to if and/or how the Word and God shared essence, it is impossible for humans to decipher, determine, or explain the essence of God, the overall truth that can be taken from this explanation, however is that "The word God, used attributively ( as in godly or divine), maintains the distinction between God and the Word, ......and ascribes to the Word all the attributes of the divine (nature)...." *parenthesis and editing mine.

Notice also in the Latin:

Joh 1:1 in principio erat Verbum et Verbum erat apud Deum et Deus erat Verbum

Each time the words used for The Word(Verbum) and The God(Deum) end in "UM" while the word used in the attributive ends in "US". Had this passage meant to denote that the Word was The God ( both proper nouns), would it not have been depicted as "Deum arat Verbum"?

This correction in translation as follows would make the entire series of scriptures referring to "the Word" harmonize without contradiction and maintain clarity as to the identity of the Word as Christ and his relation to The God....

Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was divine. Joh 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.
Joh 1:3 All things were made through him; and without him was not anything made that hath been made.
Joh 1:4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
Joh 1:5 And the light shineth in the darkness; and the darkness apprehended it not.
Joh 1:6 There came a man, sent from God, whose name was John.
Joh 1:7 The same came for witness, that he might bear witness of the light, that all might believe through him.
Joh 1:8 He was not the light, but came that he might bear witness of the light.
Joh 1:9 There was the true light, even the light which lighteth every man, coming into the world.
Joh 1:10 He was in the world, and the world was made through him, and the world knew him not.
Joh 1:11 He came unto his own, and they that were his own received him not.
Joh 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he the right to become children of God, even to them that believe on his name:

Love,

Chris

I think it best, from now on, that I will finish my thoughts and post them directly to the web site when I feel the time appropriate.

Ok, I'm still learning. Take your time, and I'll patiently await your thought process on this.

I would like to add that I prefer to take my time, meditate on these things and ponder them in my head. The way I see these these things fitting together has taken me YEARS to work out into any kind of way that is satisfactory to my thinking.
These things do NOT come overnight.

However you are correct that moving the onset of the seventh trumpet to day 1290 is the 'gist', and for now I feel this offers a more satisfactory interpretation... I am however my own greatest critic and would prefer to take the time to DETAIL this rather than hastily throw it on the table. To me, just any old solution in order to satify me for the present is really no solution at all.

Yeah chris thats basically the thought so I will not take time to detail it now...

Ok I tried being patient, but, it didn't work. One more thought to get it out of my system and you can have at it. According to your chart you have the extra 30 days (Dan 12:13 1290-1260=30) as the seven vials and Armegeddon and the Second coming as the remaining forty-five days. I'm sure I'm probably missing the scripture that might clarify this, but....

Rev 18:8 Therefore in one day shall her plagues come, death, and mourning, and famine; and she shall be utterly burned with fire; for strong is the Lord God who judged her.

As "one day" could mean "one season" could the vials and Armegeddon all happen within the 45 days?

Dan 12:11 And from the time that the continual burnt-offering shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand and two hundred and ninety days.

The "sign" and the resurrection can still come at the 1261 and even their enemies can behold them and within the fifteen days(one hour), the attacks on one of the European countries and the political upheavals begin(earthquakes), but, we still have time( the other 15 days?) for....Rev 11:14 The second Woe is past: behold, the third Woe cometh quickly.

Dan 12:12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.

Then at the beginning of this season should the seventh Trumpet begin to sound. That, granted would REALLY make for a fast judgment, but, as before, there were thirty days alloted for the six vials, the seventh would be condensed to 15 instead of 45. Plus the elect are still gathered at the onset and return before the seventh vial.

Give me some clarity, PLEASE!!! But, no hurry, take your time (ugh!)

Chris

I don't know if that really goes along with the Revelation account though...

Rev 11:11 And after the three days and a half the breath of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them that beheld them.

I guess this would denote that they make it to the full 1260 days before being raised... OK, I'll try to be patient.

Chris

Hey David,

I know you'll probably blow me out of the water with what you're cookin up, but, I have a thought/question.

Mat 24:21 for then shall be great tribulation, such as hath not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, nor ever shall be.
Mat 24:22 And except those days had been shortened, no flesh would have been saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

Is it possible, since this tribulation is the same time period as the Witnesses' "death" of 3 1/2 years, that the 3 1/2 yrs is more of an allottment of time that will ultimately be shortened for the sake of the elect? The sign of the son of man and the resurrection of the Witnesses happen in the shortened timeframe and keeping the original calculation of the seventh trumpet blowing on schedule at the 1260 days?

Chris

TIMELINE TROUBLES

There is a potential problem with the timeline as I have presented it. Even though I have had the same basic outline in my head for many months, this problem did not become clear to me until I sat down and diagramed the timeline the other day.

The problem basically concerns the timing of the events surrounding the 'resurrection' of the Two Witnesses, the 'sign of the Son of Man' given in Maatthew 24, the signs in the heavens of Matthew 24, the Earthquake following the resurrection of the Two Witnesses, and the seventh trumpet which signals the first resurrection and the gathering of the elect.

I believe strongly in the precision and accuracy of the word of God. However, believing in that accuracy leads me to believe that the position outlined in the recently posted timeline contains an error.

I have been saying for months that from the time the final 'Abomination of Desolation' is placed until the sounding of the seventh trumpet is 1260 days. I have been equating that time period with the time that the bodies of the Two Witnesses lie dead in the street.

The problem is, IF they lie dead for the entire 1260 days, and they are not resurrected until AFTER that 1260 days as the text states, and IF their resurrection, being taken to heaven, and the earthquake of Revelation 11 are not until AFTER 1260 days, and IF all this takes place within the SIXTH trumpet as is clearly stated, and IF I have been correct that the time from the placing of the abomination of desolation to the seventh trumpet is 1260 days.....

THEN the only tenable position would be to claim that ALL these things... the resurrection of the witnesses, the earthquake, the sign of the Son of Man, the seventh trumpet etc ALL MUST HAPPEN IN RAPID SUCCESSION ON DAY1261.

As much as I hate to mess up my pretty charts, I do not feel that such a position is likely or even possible. Could these events follow each other rapidly? Yes. But could they take place on the VERY SAME DAY? To me that seems highly unlikely. We are told that the seventh trumpet follows quickly after the second woe of the sixth trumpet is past - but to say that 'quickly' means 'the very same day' I think it straining the language.

We are told that a great earthquake in which a tenth of the great city falls takes place 'the same hour' that the two witnesses are resurrected. I take this to mean that one European nation will fall. Can that happen within one 24 hour period? I suppose it COULD, but is the scenario likely? NO. If we interpret time in the same manner as we do elsewhere in Revelation, that one day=one year, then one hour is 1/24th of a year or 15 DAYS. Could a nation fall in 15 days? Yes, that is a resonable scenario. The problem is then that this pushes the seventh trumpet to at least day 1275, NOT 1260.

As I said, I believe strongly enough in the accuracy and precision of the language of scripture that I have to admit that something in my timeline contains an error.

I believe that I have however found a solution to this error, but it will take me a while to detail it. I will post it here once the details are worked out. In the mean time I simply wanted to point out what I beleive to be a problem.

--David

Hey Rhonda,

Please, no forgiveness needed!! It's sometimes hard to get a proper feel for a question and I am guilty of waking up without my thought process in full gear and jumping in too fast. Any hoo, as to the revelation of Christ, I think what kind of threw me in Eby's article was that at first it seemed that the book of Revelation alone was the culmination of his revelation, when I see Christ in the whole Bible. But, I did like the analogy of the farmer in that we shouldn't always look at what God has to take out of us (sin.etc..) but, what he puts into us. Kind of like having a bottle with dirt in it, if you put it under a tap and let the water keep coming in, eventually the dirt just comes out and all that is left is a full, overflowing vessel.

Focus on letting the water work instead of just trying to shake the dirt out. I do agree that Christ will ultimately reveal himself with and through the "revealed" sons of God and nature itself will celebrate.

Love you Sis,

Chris

Hi Chris,

No--I didn't mean for you to not be musing about the historical view of prophecy in Revelation! No, I meant to see the personal interpretation as he's presenting it. I just wondered if you or David had ever considered it in this way also. For 2000 years we've seen prediction after prediction, hundreds of them based on Rev, not come to pass; these were oftentimes by very sincere and honest-hearted truthseekers--and while we look for answers, as we should do, and as we examine history as we should do--(although Eby doesn't believe we should do that), what he does say about Revelation being a Revelation OF the Lord Jesus Christ hit a nerve in me. I'm sorry if my recommending the reading of this caused you to think that I thought what you are doing is wrong: NO NOT AT ALL! Its just that I had never seen it presented in this way before, and I just wanted your imput about that part--can it be taken in a spiritual way AS WELL AS a world view way? That's really all I wanted to know.

Please forgive me if sharing this with you seemed to be admonishing you in any way. I didn't mean it that way AT ALL! This is why I just wanted to run it by you two, and not talk about it in public, lol, because I'm just musing as well.

Love to You Both,

--Rhonda

Hey you guys,

Rhonda, I started reading some of Eby's stuff today, ie, the first part of his Revelation synopsis. I believe it is important to not take ourselves too seriously on predictions based on Biblical prophecy, but, I can't find many flaws as of yet with things like the timeline David has produced or the early reformer's perspectives on historical fulfillment of prophecy. However there is only to present day that we can come close to solidifying anything and anything that is future is entirely speculative and solely to see if there are any possibilities that might not take us off our guard. My speculations of the vials is PURELY that-speculation and I'll have you both know, that you are the only two-besides my wife and a few friends who already think I'm loopy- that I would even venture to share with.;)

I agree with Eby that reading it and trying to figure Revelation out like a puzzle simply to feel "puffed up with knowledge" is truly hazardous. As for me, the more things that fall into place actually enflames my emotions and builds my faith at the awe-inspiring foreknowledge of God through Christ. There are those I have come in contact with who are seeking something but have been soured by Southern "Church" and Futurist fairy-tales. I have been somewhat successful in showing them a glimpse of God's foreknowledge through prophecy and I believe they think that if the Bible proves itself through being the only religious book to reveal "future-knowledge" even though the future knowledge had been fulfilled within our histories, that maybe they out to take a look at what else it has to say.

Just musings with my friends and family,

Chris

Hi David and Chris,

I sat in amazement reading Eby's thoughts on Rev. Yes, I too think that he may be going too far in the direction of spiritualizing, but at the same time, I'm so glad he did, because it opened a door in my mind that had been shut all my life. This door that has been opened has let Christ in like never before: first, with the idea of UR which is something I was always afraid to open, but deep down saw for years, and second, the realization and understanding of Christ (Head him, Body us) being revealed. This is what the world growns for the revealing of, and just reading about it in its deepness allowed me to open that door.

Brothers, I can definitely see that God is in complete control, I can definitely see from my own life's spiritual journey how he's been leading me rung by rung to climb Jacob's ladder! Do you feel this too?

Anyway, I'll let you know as I continue my studies any new things I can share. Enjoying your timeline and thoughts about the vials. Revelation has always been so intriguing. Chris, I hope you get a chance to read at least the first part of Eby's article about it. Let me know what you think when you have! Brothers, I've quite literally changed my thinking! I'm seeing everything in a different light. I really can't believe it because as I progressed closer and closer to "Truth", I now realize how wrong I've been about so many things! I've found that religion, for the most part, being a teacher it has taught me much--and it has also diverted me from learning the Christ in a personal way.

--Love You Guys,
--Rhonda

Hey Rhonda,

Let the fun continue!! I'll have to get into the Eby stuff over the weekend. David has been admonishing me for thinking of too many things at once and then barraging him with questions.(Wink)

David, I tried to only think of one or two things today and I have a slightly revised "speculation" of the vials...

Rev 16:2 And the first went away and poured out his bowl on the earth, and a foul and malignant ulcerated sore occurred on the people, the ones having the mark of the beast and the ones prostrating themselves in worship before its image.

Terrorist attack on Democratic/ Republican countries by religious zealots.

Rev 16:3 And the second angel poured out his bowl into the sea, and it became blood as of [one] dead, and every living soul [or, creature] died in the sea.

Something akin to deliberate oil-spillage or ecological disaster in Middle East.

Rev 16:4 And the third {angel} poured out his bowl into the rivers and into the fountains of the waters, and it became blood.

Terrorist attack on drinking water systems or biological warfare.

Rev 16:8 And the fourth angel poured out his bowl on the sun, and it was given to him to scorch the people with fire.
Rev 16:9 And the people were scorched with great heat, and the people blasphemed the name of God, the One having authority over these plagues, and they did not repent [so as] to give to Him glory.

SEVERE retaliation by one or both sides---bombing-nuclear or other.

Rev 16:10 And the fifth {angel} poured out his bowl on the throne of the beast, and his kingdom has become darkened; and they began gnawing their tongues from the pain.
Rev 16:11 And they blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and because of their ulcerated sores, and they did not repent from their works.

Based on your thoughts about Western Europe becoming an "outer darkness prison", more severe attacks on Europe resulting in a large civil and economic failure. A "dark" kingdom.

Rev 16:12 And the sixth {angel} poured out his bowl on the great river Euphrates, and its water was dried up, so that the way of the kings, the ones from [the] rising of [the] sun [fig., from the east], would be prepared.

Severe retaliation from American powers on behalf of Europe on the Middle East making way for the gathering to Armegeddon.

Rev 16:17 And the seventh {angel} poured out his bowl into the air, and a loud voice came out from the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, "It has happened!"
Rev 16:18 And [there] occurred lightning flashes and peals of thunder and voices, and a great earthquake {occurred}, such as did not occur since the people came on the earth, so mighty an earthquake-so great!
Rev 16:19 And the great city became [fig., was split] into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell, and Babylon the great was remembered before God, to give to her the cup of the wine of the rage of His wrath.
Rev 16:20 And every island fled away, and mountains were not found.
Rev 16:21 And huge hail, [each] weighing about a talent [about 95 pounds or 42 kilograms], is coming down out of heaven [or, the sky] on the people, and the people blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail, because its plague is extremely great.

The final culmination of the Fall of Babylon as well as political worldwide upheaval and failure, even riots and warlike situations everywhere.

Love the timeline, I started writing one last week until I had so much writing all over the page it was hard to read.

Although I see the violent persecution of Christians as the more plausible, but, since I am the king of alternative thinking, might it be possible that the tribulation as the Witnesses lie dead is such that the Bible and religion are made so ineffective that unless the days were cut short, aside from the elect, no flesh would be saved (spiritually)? A completely decadent society as in the days of Noah? Just musing.

Talk to you two later.
Love you both.

Chris

Hi Again Rhonda,

I have indeed looked also at what Eby has written on the Book of Revelation and find it fascinating.

I can say that over the years my views on Revealtion have become more and more 'spiritualized'. For example, when it comes to the Battle of Armageddon, do I believe that millions will literally be gathered on a literal plain in Israel... most likely not. These are symbolical word pictures which can only be spititually discerned. I realize that this goes against the modern tide of Bible expositors who favor sensationalism over all.

But I do believe that there is a point where we can go overboard. Spititual things are still realities that we see relfected in the physical realm. For example, there are some that see nothing more in Babylon the Great than the literal future rebuilding of this city in Iraq. To me this is woefully shortsighted and completely misses the point. Babylon is a symbol of a culture that has become wholly spiritually oppressive to God's people. It is not literally a single city, but it exists in this world very much as a spiritual reality. It's overthrow and judgment will be swift and violent.

As another example, there are some who believe that the literal temple in Jerusalem will be rebuilt. This is completely missing the mark. WE - the body of believers are that temple. When we read that the 'outer court' would be trampled for 1260 'days', then this does have some very real meaning for God's people, although that meaning is spiritually discerned.

Did the two witnesses literally smite the world with plagues? No, but the world endured many plagues because these spiritual principles were ignored and surpressed.

Clearly these things are spiritual, but I do believe there still is a point where we can over-spiritualize. I rember Eby writing something about how Daniel and Revelation are not to be connected because one was physical and the other spiritual. I think that's a bit overboard. Didn't the visions given to Daniel have the forsight to see that the kingdom would be transferred to 'spiritual israel'?

Anyway, 'just my thoughts' ;-)

--David

Rhonda!!

It is soooo good to have you here!

Yes I have heard of Eby and have read much of what he wrote. I find that I agree with a lot of it.

Looking forward to many more enlightening discussions.

--David

Hello My Brothers,

I've been doing some studying myself of late; spending many hours studying UR. I've found that it isn't a religion, but a belief. There are Pentecostals who believe in UR, Lutherans, etc. I even found a group of Bible Students who believe in UR--and guess what? They're Sabbatarians as well! LOL!

I've found a certain writer to be pretty amazing; his name is J Preston Eby. Have you ever read anything by him? What really blew me away was his writings on Revelation. I know you both are extremely busy, but if you get a chance, I would love to hear what you think about this.

Here's the link: http://sigler.org/eby/index.html

Hope you'll check it out if you find the time.

God Bless,
--Rhonda

OK,

Since I've turned into an insomniac, I stayed up into the wee hours of the morning... ok, it's now almost 10:00 A.M, so not so 'wee'.... anyway I stayed up and banged out a 'timeline chart'. This still needs a lot of work and I have a lot of things I can still fill in on it, but these ideas have been swimming around my head for so long I felt it was time to put them into something a bit more visual.

You should be able to just click the link in this log here.

Hope you find it at least interesting...

--David


The Prophetic Timeline

Wow, that's a lot to take in, but makes much sense. If we're even close on the vials and alot has to do with "terrorrist activity" and small religious wars, then your summation of Daniel 11-especially the part where the King of the north rampages the Middle East very well may be under the sixth vial. "The water was dried up" could be similar terminology to the "flood" of persecution that was swallowed up by the helpful earth, although at the expense of personal freedoms including Religious Ones, reasoning that with the first five vials possibly being made by the "other side", the sixth is made by the "king of the North' by way of protection, supposedly. Either way, ther will be major loss of life and if terrorrists or small nuclear powered nations end up taking many Wetsern Civilized lives, then the Red, White, and Blue will certainly seek retribution endorsed by many who would gladly put down their Christianity to see "justice done".

Got lots to think about.

Chris

THOUGHTS ON DANIEL 11

Without a doubt this is a difficult chapter. I only wish to concern myself at this time with the latter part of it.

30 For the ships of Chittim shall come against him: therefore he shall be grieved, and return, and have indignation against the holy covenant: so shall he do; he shall even return, and have intelligence with them that forsake the holy covenant.

31 And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily [sacrifice], and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate.
(Dan 11:30-31)

There is a break after verse 30, and beginning at verse 31 a new 'king of the north' is addressed. The identity of the 'kings of the north and south' changes throughout the prophecy as various kings and governments act in these capacities.

'Arms shall stand on his part'... It is believed that here the Romans are introduced as the 'king of the north'. This seems evident. It is the Romans who polluted the sanctuary, took away the daily sacrifices, and placed 'the abomination of desolation'.

From here through verse 39 the growing apostasy is addressed culminating in the Papacy, whose description, I believe, cannot be missed:

And such as do wickedly against the covenant shall he corrupt by flatteries: but the people that do know their God shall be strong, and do [exploits]. And they that understand among the people shall instruct many: yet they shall fall by the sword, and by flame, by captivity, and by spoil, [many] days. Now when they shall fall, they shall be holpen with a little help: but many shall cleave to them with flatteries. And [some] of them of understanding shall fall, to try them, and to purge, and to make [them] white, [even] to the time of the end: because [it is] yet for a time appointed. And the king shall do according to his will; and he shall exalt himself, and magnify himself above every god, and shall speak marvellous things against the God of gods, and shall prosper till the indignation be accomplished: for that that is determined shall be done. Neither shall he regard the God of his fathers, nor the desire of women, nor regard any god: for he shall magnify himself above all. But in his estate shall he honour the God of forces: and a god whom his fathers knew not shall he honour with gold, and silver, and with precious stones, and pleasant things. Thus shall he do in the most strong holds with a strange god, whom he shall acknowledge [and] increase with glory: and he shall cause them to rule over many, and shall divide the land for gain.
(Dan 11:32-39)

Beginning at verse 40 there is yet another obvious change:

'And at the time of the end....'

It boggles the mind how so many futurist interpreters do not see a problem here with their own exposition. The description of what they consider to be the 'one man antichrist' PRECEDES the time of the end. All that they ascribe to the antichrist, which they feel takes place IN the time of the end is expressly stated to PRECEDE the time of the end.

But we read:


And at the time of the end shall the king of the south push at him: and the king of the north shall come against him like a whirlwind, with chariots, and with horsemen, and with many ships; and he shall enter into the countries, and shall overflow and pass over. He shall enter also into the glorious land, and many [countries] shall be overthrown: but these shall escape out of his hand, [even] Edom, and Moab, and the chief of the children of Ammon. He shall stretch forth his hand also upon the countries: and the land of Egypt shall not escape. But he shall have power over the treasures of gold and of silver, and over all the precious things of Egypt: and the Libyans and the Ethiopians [shall be] at his steps. But tidings out of the east and out of the north shall trouble him: therefore he shall go forth with great fury to destroy, and utterly to make away many. And he shall plant the tabernacles of his palace between the seas in the glorious holy mountain; yet he shall come to his end, and none shall help him.
(Dan 11:40-45)

My reflections on this are that whatever power followed the papacy will, in the time of the end, go on a military rampage through the Middle East, even encamping in Jerusalem itself. My thoughts are that this can be nothing other than the western Alliances who will be forced into this military position due to growing tensions in the Middle East.

And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation [even] to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
(Dan 12:1)

'And at that time'... The time in which this military rampage is going on. This will coincide with the 'great tribulation'. What many in this country do not realize, is that in times of national crisis there is provision to suspend the constitution of our country. If this turns out to be a 'war of religion', or part of a 'war on terror' then it takes little imagine to see how Christians themselves could suddenly be viewed as 'terrorists' and enemies of peace. In fact, such a military campaign could be the very means of enforcing some U.N. resolution which in itself is really 'the mark of the beast'.

Surely such accuracy of prediction concerning the past will not fail to come to pass, probably sooner rather than later.

--David

VARIOUS MUSINGS ON THE 'TIMELINE'

Hi Chris,

Thanks for the comments on the 'bowl judgments'. As you say, unfortunately all we can do is speculate; at least for now.

I wanted to back up for a moment to the 'SIGN'. Actually I was noticing that only Matthew mentions the SIGN. Lets look st something here:

Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
(Mat 24:29-31)

First of all, we have the great tribulation. According to my timeline, I understand this period to be the 3.5 days (to be interpreted as years) that the Two Witnesses lie dead in the street.

Then we read that 'immediately' after those days the sun will be darkened, the moon not give her light, etc.

Now here's one thing I think we must consider. Jesus said that the days of the tribulation would be shortened; if not, no flesh would be saved. This is done on account of the elect. I do not believe he means that the earth's population would be in danger of being wiped out, but that the elect themselves might be wiped out. For their sakes these days of great tribulation would be shortened.

In what way are these days shortened? It seems to me that this cannot mean that the period will be less than 1260 days. The scriptures themselves cannot be broken. This seems to indicate, at least to my mind, that the ability to persecute Christians will in some way be significantly reduced before the entire 1260 days runs its course. The fact is, we are not told in exactly what way these days of tribulation are shortened.

Then we read that immediately after the tribulation of those days, the sun is darkened, the stars fall, etc. I am not sure that we are to understand this literally. This was common Hebrew phraseology and the disciples would understand it as such. This seems to mean that iniquity has run its course to the point where truth is squelched and the judgment of God is about to fall. Of course there could be no better description of such a situation as that God's two witnesses have layed dead in the street for 3.5 days (years) and not put into graves, while the world in general rejoiced at their demise.

Then appears this SIGN, and then AFTER the sign the tribes see Jesus coming. The SIGN is NOT that they see him coming. That is not how I am reading this. There is some SIGN before he comes.

As you know, I equate whatever this sign is with the two witnesses being 'taken to heaven'. The problem is, I don't have any idea what the sign is. But since the world sees the two witnesses ascend into 'heaven' and since this sign appears in 'heaven' I have to believe that the sign is literally going to be in the sky above us, and that whatever it is will scare a great many people.

As we know, at this same 'hour' there is a great earthquake, and a tenth of the city falls.

After all this, which then is still technically under the sixth trumpet, they will see Jesus coming with power and great glory as he sends the angles with the sound of a great (seventh) trumpet to gather the elect.

I believe at this point the elect are called to 'meet the Lord in the air', where they will remain until the bowls are pured out. After this they descend to the earth at Armegedon.

I know we've discussed all this.. just trying to get all down in writing.

--David

Rev 18:8 Therefore in one day shall her plagues come, death, and mourning, and famine; and she shall be utterly burned with fire; for strong is the Lord God who judged her.

Rev 11:13 And in that day a great earthquake occurred, and the tenth of the city fell, and seven thousand names of people [fig., individuals] were killed in the earthquake; and the rest became terrified, and they gave glory to the God of heaven.
Rev 11:14 The second horror is past. Listen! The third horror is coming quickly!
Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded [his] trumpet, and [there] occurred great voices in heaven, saying, "The kingdom of the world became [the kingdom] of our Lord and of His Christ, and He will reign into the ages of the ages [fig., forever and ever]!"
Rev 11:16 And the twenty-four elders, the ones sitting on their thrones before {the throne of} God, fell on their faces and prostrated themselves in worship before God,
Rev 11:17 saying, "We give thanks to You, O Lord God, the Almighty, the One being and the One [who] was, because You have taken Your great power and reigned.
Rev 11:18 "And the nations were enraged, and Your wrath came, and the time of the dead to be judged [came], and [the time] to give the reward to Your slaves the prophets and to the holy ones and the ones fearing Your name, to the small and to the great, and to destroy the ones utterly destroying the earth."
Rev 11:19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and the ark of the covenant of the Lord was seen in His temple, and [there] occurred lightning flashes and voices and peals of thunder and an earthquake and great hail.

The first verse adds some credence to these possibilities. Next, earthquakes usually denote political upheaval and hail as in the first trumpet was symbolic of invading armies or in the modern age, attacks from armies-be they long range, ground, terrorristic or bio-weaponed or even nuclear as things really start to get out of control.

Still, all speculation of course.

Chris

Rev 16:3 And the second poured out his bowl into the sea; and it became blood as of a dead man; and every living soul died, even the things that were in the sea.

Maybe more ecological or bio-terrorist activity in the water systems, or maybe massive oil spills. That seems to be the focal point as of late in the Middle East. The "sea" might also be a geographical clue for Europe and Middle East.

Rev 16:4 And the third poured out his bowl into the rivers and the fountains of the waters; and it became blood.
Maybe while it is something like an Oil spill in the previous one, there is a more bio-hazardous one in this verse due to the drinking of blood.

Rev 16:5 And I heard the angel of the waters saying, Righteous art thou, who art and who wast, thou Holy One, because thou didst thus judge:
Rev 16:6 for they poured out the blood of the saints and the prophets, and blood hast thou given them to drink: they are worthy.

Rev 16:8 And the fourth poured out his bowl upon the sun; and it was given unto it to scorch men with fire.
Rev 16:9 And men were scorched men with great heat: and they blasphemed the name of God who hath the power over these plagues; and they repented not to give him glory.

Either nuclear blasts or nuclear blasts causing enough localized damage to the ozone layer. Men wondering why God has done this and why he won't stop it.

Rev 16:10 And the fifth poured out his bowl upon the throne of the beast; and his kingdom was darkened; and they gnawed their tongues for pain,
Rev 16:11 and they blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores; and they repented not of their works.

Whatever judgment this is it seems that the throne of the beast is here in the US and we see now how fragile our standard of living is and how dependant we are on technology.

Rev 16:12 And the sixth poured out his bowl upon the great river, the river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way might by made ready for the kings that come from the sunrising.

Back to the Middle East. What countries are east of the Euphrates? Or is this in preparation for the gathering of the kings to Armeggeddon?

Rev 16:17 And the seventh poured out his bowl upon the air; and there came forth a great voice out of the temple, from the throne, saying, It is done:
Rev 16:18 and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunders; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since there were men upon the earth, so great an earthquake, so mighty.

Wondering about a correlation with....Eph 2:2 wherein ye once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the powers of the air, of the spirit that now worketh in the sons of disobedience;

With the subsequent political 'earthquakes" and the splitting of the city, this might apply with the collapse of governments...etc..., or yet another air borne germ killer.

The irony of all this is that at first glance and especially when looking at...Rev 16:5 And I heard the angel of the waters saying, Righteous art thou, who art and who wast, thou Holy One, because thou didst thus judge:
Rev 16:6 for they poured out the blood of the saints and the prophets, and blood hast thou given them to drink: they are worthy. .....one would almost falsely think that God is being malicious or sadistic in these judgments, but if we are correct with all the technological things and terrorism and bio-engineered things and nuclear things... it is merely man in his attempts to be gods and living in convenient luxury that has set up an institution destined to fall with a slight pull of the weakest links.

Your turn.

As a matter of fact, I remember being told that the Great Tribulation is the 1000yr reign in which the church is in heaven watching the earth get burned up with the vials. So many professed Christian will be caught off guard at the tribulation against the "church" due to the Witnesses.

Chris

I think we are both pretty much on the same page now. I've had to adjust my thinking a little. One way people are caught off guard as you say is the shortness of time in which things go from bad to devastating. Not to mention the Rapture people expecting to be gone without seeing anything looking like the day of the Lord. Back to analogies...it began to rain, but took some time (not a lot) before they realize exactly what kind of danger they were in.....birth pangs on a woman come suddenly, but, still a little time before the birth...

The world being filled with violence is a good parallel...to some of us, Christ's coming doesn't seem far off. And as you say, even some of the best "Christians" are desensitized to things that would curl Christ's toes.

The Great Tribulation as you say, won't necessarily be on the world, but, on those who refuse to let the Witnesses die. Those who were tortured by them will have a lull in the action for the 3 1/2 yrs. Killing Christians, I'm sure, might be just as much fun today as it was in Rome--just being facitious.

Chris

You think you know where I'm going with this? Care to let me in on it?!?

Actually people tend to think of 'the rapture' as that which will catch people off guard, or simply say things like 'people will be saying peace and safety when Jesus comes'.

Actually Paul tells us exactly what it is that's going to catch the world off guard and shatter their illusuions pf peace and safety...


For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
(1Th 5:2-3)

It is the 'day of the Lord' that is going to catch the world off guard. According to my calculations from the start of the day of the Lord until the end of Armageddon is 75 days - that's some pretty swift destruction.

Now people struggle with the idea that even before this the 'great tribulation' has to take place... how can people be eating, drinking, crying peace and safety etc in the midst of all that?

well for a couple reasons... one there could be a brief lull before the day of the Lord starts, but I don't think thats necessary really.

Consider the conditions in the earth before the flood. The Land was FILLED with violence and men's hearts were continually evil all the time. It was so bad that God needed to bring the flood to destroy it, but to those on the earth it was just their way of life... they were desinsitized too it so much that they went on eating, drinking, etc in spite of the fact that the land was filled with violence.

They were however secure in the fact that they could continue that way, having no idea that God's judgment stood at the door.

--David

Hmmm, off the cuff I would say in Noah's time the terminus point was when it began to rain. Since it had never rained before, I think that would have been a good point to stop partying. Do you think that "sudden destruction" isn't that "sudden"? That once it started to rain, attention got focused on the events, but, that destruction/death in a sense didn't happen until the water got high enough to drown in? Hmmmm, think I see where you are going. The events leading up to the "destruction" begin suddenly. Maybe?

Chris

A QUESTION TO CLARIFY

Hi Chris,

When we talk about people saying 'peace and safety' before 'sudden destruction strikes... of the days of Noah where there were eating and drinking and giving in Marriage until the flood came and took them all away, etc.... What in your thinking is the terminus point? In other words, what is the 'sudden destruction'? When does it begin? What corresponds to the 'flood' beginning, up to which point life went on as normal? I think this might be a point of confusion between you and I. Would like to get your thoughs for clarity.

--David

No end in sight! What do you think about the "tribes" versus "nations" aspect? Does it refer to tribes since when it becomes apparent that he is coming, they will bewail themselves as not being ready or falling short during the Witnesses death? Will the Jews mourn when they recognize they had been wrong? Will the nations be that oblivious?

Chris

SIGN OF THE END

Well, there is no sign that this discussion is going to come to an end any time soon! LOL

But I would tend to agree with you if I understand you properly. The SIGN PRECEDES the seventh trumpet, and so must also precede the bowls - at least in my mind. The reason I believe this is because I am equating the sign with the resurrection of the witnesses and their being taken to heaven. This is all UNDER THE SECON WOE - SIXTH TRUMPET.

We do howver read that the third woe, and seventh trumpet will follow QUICKLY after that - so in fact, when the SIGN somes, our redemption draws near... although we won't be there yet, we know that it will come quickly.

--Daivd

Hi Chris,

You wrote:

Why is this verse here?
Rev 16:15 (Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walked naked, and they see his shame.)
Just before the gathering to Armegeddon and the seventh vial? I am trying to harmonize this with the sign of Matt 24.
I might still be trying to bullet-proof the idea that the elect are gathered at the onset of the seventh trump.

Why is that verse there? Well, because it’s supposed to be of course! LOL.

But honestly, you say that you are trying to solidify the thought that the ELECT are taken at the onset of the seventh trumpet. I feel that we need to start by asking; are there CHRISTIANS still on the earth even up to and through Armageddon? As the verse you pointed out states, YES there are still Christians on the earth, even through Armageddon.

BUT, are the ELECT still on the earth? THAT is the question. It might sound very ‘Bible Studentish’ for me to say so, but just as not ‘all Israel is Israel’, not all Christians are the elect. It is the ELECT that are gathered at the onset of the seventh trumpet, but this does not mean that there aren’t still Christians upon the earth and those who have turned to God in repentance. So indeed these are still instructed to watchfulness right up until the second coming.

Consider this, and this might seem a little complex, but I feel that it’s the key to all this:

And ye yourselves like unto men that wait for their lord, when he will return from the wedding; that when he cometh and knocketh, they may open unto him immediately. Blessed [are] those servants, whom the lord when he cometh shall find watching: verily I say unto you, that he shall gird himself, and make them to sit down to meat, and will come forth and serve them. And if he shall come in the second watch, or come in the third watch, and find [them] so, blessed are those servants. And this know, that if the goodman of the house had known what hour the thief would come, he would have watched, and not have suffered his house to be broken through. Be ye therefore ready also: for the Son of man cometh at an hour when ye think not.
(Luk 12:36-40)

Here we have exhortations to watch for our Lord’s return. Now, the first question is, WHO is he talking to here. Verse 22 states that Jesus is addressing his ‘disciples’. Some people seem to equate the ‘disciples’ with the twelve apostles, but that is not the case. Many of his ‘disciples’ eventually forsook him, or stumbled at one or more of teachings. The disciples consisted of the large numbers of crowds who followed Jesus and heard him teach.

So, this is a very general exhortation to watchfulness directed toward the DISCIPLES.

Now, what are they promised as a reward for this watchfulness? This is important:

Blessed [are] those servants, whom the lord when he cometh shall find watching: verily I say unto you, that he shall gird himself, and make them to sit down to meat, and will come forth and serve them.

Notice he comes forth, and FEEDS THEM.

Now something very interesting happens. Right after Jesus says this Peter asks:

Then Peter said unto him, Lord, speakest thou this parable unto us, or even to all?
(Luk 12:41)

I think Chris that Peter is asking the same question that you are asking, ‘Lord, why is this verse here?’ Something seems out of place in Peter’s mind, or he would not be asking if this information was directed to him, or the crowd in general. I believe that Jesus’ answer clears up all the confusion:

And the Lord said, Who then is that faithful and wise steward, whom [his] lord shall make ruler over his household, to give them their portion of meat in due season? Blessed [is] that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing. Of a truth I say unto you, that he will make him ruler over all that he hath.
(Luk 12:42-44)

Here Jesus introduces a faithful and wise steward. What is this servant promised? To be a RULER over all that is the Lord’s, and to FEED the others. Notice that to the previous group there was a promise that they would be fed, but no peomise that they would RULE. However, there is a faithful and wise group who does the feeding, but are made rulers as well.

Now if we look at Revelation 7 and the 144,00 vs.the ‘great crowd’ I think we see this very distinction. The 144,000 represent the very elect of God, and the ‘great crowd’ represents the masses of ‘disciples’ which are not of the elect. Now notice what it says about the great crowd in 7:14-17:

And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them. They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat. For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.
(Rev 7:14-17)

Notice, the Lamb shall FEED THEM. This was that which was promised to the ‘disciples’ who were told to watch. This is what prompted Peter’s question ‘Lord, do you say this to US or to all?’

The great crowd are those who are FED. However, there was to be another group who would do the FEEDING and would be made rulers over all.

So there are two groups here… disciples in general on the one hand who are FED, and the elect rulers on the other hand who do the FEEDING.

So, in reply to the question ‘why is this verse here’, we must answer – Because clearly there are still Christians and disciples on the earth at that time. However this has nothing to do with those who were deemed the elect which I believe are represented by the 144,000 seen already with Jesus in Revelation 14 AFTER the seventh trumpet blows, but BEFORE the bowls are poured out.

Hope this helps

--David

New thoughts on the Signs of the end,

Mat 24:29 But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30 and then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31 And he shall send forth his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Mar 13:26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in clouds with great power and glory.
Mar 13:27 And then shall he send forth the angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

Luk 21:27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
Luk 21:28 But when these things begin to come to pass, look up, and lift up your heads; because your redemption draweth nigh. Luk 21:29 And he spake to them a parable: Behold the fig tree, and all the trees:
Luk 21:30 when they now shoot forth, ye see it and know of your own selves that the summer is now nigh.

The sign is seen of him coming, but, when exactly will he arrive? He is seen coming with power and great glory ( with the setting forth of some of the vials?) but, in Luke, the firstfruits are told that there redemption draws near, but, is not yet.

Each of the sign scriptures is followed by the parable of the fig tree, and the judging of seasons by the ripening of the leaves. The sign that the harvest is coming is that the leaves become tender and the time is NEAR. The tribes, not, nations will mourn. The nations will treat it as in the days of Noah, although they are in turmoil (they have been moreso since the turn of the century, but, they still party). Is this because "tribes" calls to mind Israel and "spiritual Israel", emphasizing those that you have mentioned as being professed Christians, but, not having true zeal? Will only religious people recognize that something big is brewing an not just dismiss it as natural disaster or just the state of the world or some phenomenon? The closest analogy I can come up with is when you see dark clouds you know there is a storm coming quickly, but, not sure when the lightning will strike. The elect are warned when they see the sign of his coming to hold there heads high until he gathers them, not knowing precisely when.

Rev 16:15 (Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walked naked, and they see his shame.)
Rev 16:16 And they gathered them together into the place which is called in Hebrew Har-magedon.
Rev 16:17 And the seventh poured out his bowl upon the air; and there came forth a great voice out of the temple, from the throne, saying, It is done:

An admonishment to keep watching is made just prior to the seventh vial. Is this an admonishment for the elect, with the original warning, or for those who have now turned to Christ?

Revelation 19 has an account where Christ is precisely visible and described alongside his armies and holy ones and making pronouncement on the gathered armies. Could it be they were gathered sometime between the sixth and seventh vials? We still would have the ones "left" to make up the great multitude who have come out of the tribulation.

Thinkin out loud and lookin for answers if possible.

Chris

Hey David, I have several questions for you, some may seem redundant...etc..but, you know me.

Does it seem that during the seven vials, that although it is apparent to many, that these are judgments originating from God, that the powers that be are unbelieving, hence the influence of the three frogs?
Rev 16:10 And the fifth poured out his bowl upon the throne of the beast; and his kingdom was darkened; and they gnawed their tongues for pain,
Rev 16:11 and they blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores; and they repented not of their works.

Why is this verse here?
Rev 16:15 (Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walked naked, and they see his shame.)
Just before the gathering to Armegeddon and the seventh vial? I am trying to harmonize this with the sign of Matt 24.
I might still be trying to bullet-proof the idea that the elect are gathered at the onset of the seventh trump.

Here is an alternate line of thought, just to cover it...
Mat 24:29 But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:After the War against the witnesses and they are overcome and lie dead in the street, enlightenment and truth are squelched.
Mat 24:30 and then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.The Witnesses get validation by seeing the sign of the Son of man COMING with power---has he actually finished coming yet or is it a sign, like the star that was the sign of his first coming, followed by the fall of the one tenth?
Mat 24:31 And he shall send forth his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. It seems that the majority of the people(laity) will recognize this sign and be lamenting what it signifies, although much of the world must ignore it otherwise there wouldn't be marriage and celebrating..etc..like in Noah's time. Looking at the first verse in this post, is it possible that the elect don't get gathered until after the sixth and before the seventh? Rev 19:17-20 seem to verify his presence lliterally at the gathering of the kings to Armageddon. Or can the vials be in actuality throwing the beast and the false prophet into the lake of fire?

Also notice in verse 30 of Matt 24, that the "tribes" mourn and not the nations. Is that because only those who are familiar with the Christian story, even if it is a whole country's worth will see it for what it is? Might correspond to the Israel/1000yr theory.

Find the errors for me, please. I am dizzying myself.

Chris

MORE LAKE OF FIRE THOUGHTS

Hi Chris,

Well my problem is, that it seems to me that such a scenario would put Satan in the 'lake of fire' for the 1000 years... it would put him 'where the beast and false prophet are', but according to Revelation he doesn't go there until after the 1000 years. Unless of course this simply means that his judgment is not executed fully until after the Battle of Gog and Magog.

There are a couple problems with this line of thought which I'll admit, but I'm not ready to give up on it just yet. Under the 1000 years it appears that the laws of the kingdom will be enforced upon the nations in the strictest way. He weill 'dash them to pieces' so to speak. Jesus' warnings about Gehenna were very real, and in the Kingdom capital punishment will be carried out:

And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.
(Isa 66:24)

Jesus asked the Pharisees how it would be possible for them to escape this judgment. However, the verses in my earlier post also show that the punishment will fit the crime. I really shouldn't use the word 'punishment'... these are of course 'corrective' in nature. Anyway, it seems logical to me that there would be a lnad or lands to which some were banished for a season.

Now regarding Satan and the Demons. If we take this in a literal way, then a physical land is really no prison to a spirit being. I find it difficult to imagine that we are to understand the passage in that way. However we do know in the past that God cast some of the angels that sinned into 'Tartarus' for the specific purpose of holding them there until their time of judgment. The language concerning Satan COULD just mean that he is confined there too during the 1000 years. I do not want to force the language. However (famous last words)...

And it shall come to pass in that day, [that] the LORD shall punish the host of the high ones [that are] on high, and the kings of the earth upon the earth. And they shall be gathered together, [as] prisoners are gathered in the pit, and shall be shut up in the prison, and after many days shall they be visited.
(Isa 24:21-22)

Could the binding of Satan mean more? As you said, in a figurative way Satan represents secular authority/government. The verse above says that both the 'high ones on high' and the Kings of the earth are to be gathered to a pit. A have to wonder if this verse is the actual cross reference to Revelation. Perhaps it just means that the secular authority is surpressed by holding all those leaders who deceived the nations in the grave until the 1000 years are finished, and not allowing Satan any influence of the affairs of nations in the Kingdom.

I will more to say about Gog and Magog later...

--David

Lake of Fire,

Well, to add to the ruined Babylon the Great becoming a "prison" of sorts...

Rev 18:2 And he cried out with a mighty voice, saying, "{Fallen}, fallen [is] Babylon the great! And she became a dwelling place of demons and a prison of every unclean [or, defiling] spirit and a prison of every unclean and having been detested bird.

The question is now, will we have three types of habitations? One for the new Israel, one for the "nations" that are waiting to be gathered either to Gog/Magog or are waiting for healing, and the Babylon/prison/darkness? Or since the nations fornicated with the Harlot, might not they all be gathered to the war of Gog/magog, but, are distinctive in habitation until that time? The fact that ones gathered to the war come from the four ends of the earth doesn't limit those to one specified location. The commands to get out of her and the elect being gathered seems to denote that Babylon will be emptied of God's people. I think that line of thought that Western Europe as well as the USA could very well be holdings of demons since they are definitely going to be hit hard and suffer long. The fall of Western Civ. will also have a calamitous affect on the other nations as to their lack of prosperity and inability to do any damage during the Millenial reign.

Rev 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, the old serpent, which is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years,
Rev 20:3 and cast him into the abyss, and shut it, and sealed it over him, that he should deceive the nations no more, until the thousand years should be finished: after this he must be loosed for a little time.

If we can associate Satan with his earlier form of Government or nationality symbolically as earlier in Revelation and if we can also use the terminology of the abyss as akin to the Dark Ages, then while Israel has a period of enlightenment, the rest of the world will be in the Dark Ages anew.

Thinkin out loud...

Chris

The Sixth Seal,

Boy I think you nailed that one on the head. As I read your post, I remembered thinking early on in my Revelation study that I couldn't quite figure out why the symbolic definition of "sun and moon" would be enlightenment in one place and paganism in another. I went back and re-listened to the whole book today and it makes sense, especially as you say that AFTER this seal comes the Seventh which holds all the active judgments. A more clear case of cause and effect.

Chris

More Ramblings on the resurrection,

Just for the record I also think it prudent to refrain from too much speculation. The scripture sets are really just to prove that you can't take one without the other to prove a point when both sets really don't support either argument. Wow, did you follow that? The one thing that seems clear to me is that one set of Christians will not get an angelic body and then after their Millenial work is done, fly off into space exploring while the others are confined to earth as jon has put it. The passage in 1 Cor. at least says that one must be alive before being changed into incorruption. That might also apply to any human, whether at the trumpet, or during the reign, or at the "healing of the nations"....resurrected to mortality, then at the point where each judgment is complete and they are given permission to drink, then all is in all.
Everybody dressed in incorruption. The rewards I feel are first and foremost, being able to spend the most time in Christ's presence, as well as being a part in the faithful slave, but, even these should not be so high-minded as to look for ways to separate worth from anyone else like the 'priests" have always done.

RANDOM THOUGHTS ON THE SIXTH SEAL

And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?
(Rev 6:12-17)

I have been doing a lot of thinking on this passage....

As you know, Elliot interprets this as the banishment of paganism from the Roman Empire. Elliot was severely taken to task over this interpretation and I myself have wondered about it.

I feel that his interpreatation of the four horsemen is practically ironclad, and just about as solid and as brilliant of an exposition as I have ever read. The persecution of Christians following those riders, as signified by the fifth seal, also fits perfectly into history. But when we come to the sixth seal, I have to wonder. Is it the pagans being banished from the empire that are frightened and declaring that God's judgment has come in the form of 'Christianized' Roman government under Constantine? Why am I just a little uncomfortable with that interpretation?

This brings me to what I see as one great weakness in Elliot's exposition; namely that he tends to favor 'Orthodoxy' in his interpretations. The Council of Nicea under Constantine was a great triumph for 'orthodoxy', but was it a great triumph for the truth? I feel that this blind allegiance to 'orthodoxy' tainted Elliot in some matters.

For the life of me, my mind cannot make the leap from the banishment of Paganism from the Roman Empire on the one hand, to those who are afraid of the Judgments that are about to fall. In my mind, the 'christianization' of the empire was itself a great triumph of paganism. This was not a victory for the truth, but would become its greatest catastrophe.

I am inclined to look for more here than the fact that Constantine banished paganism from the Empire. Is that what caused the elements to be removed; the stars to fall-- The sun to become black and the moon turn to blood and the heavens to depart as a scroll? Why would these be indicative of the success of an emperor who was himself an unconverted pagan?

If I may say so, I think Elliot completely missed the point. I don't believe that the catastrophe was simply that paganism was banished from the Empire, but that under Constantine TRUTH was banished from the empire. It was not the overthrow of 'paganism' but the banishment of the TRUTH of the Gospel that would incur the wrath and judgment of God.

It was under Constantine that Christianity became that which it was never meant to be - a state religion. It was under Constantine that the doctrine of the trinity was fostered upon mankind, burying for centuries the truth about God and the simplicity of the Gospel. It was under Constantine that those who held to this truth were banished from the empire, or killed. It was under Constantine that the way was made clear for the full-blown Papal apostasy to break forth upon the world. Over 1000 years of 'dark ages' would follow. In short, the cataclysm of the sixth seal is not the banishment of 'paganism' from the empire, the real catastrophe is that truth itself was banished from the empire.

It was in this collapse and nearly total eclipse of the truth that the luminaries in the heavens were extinguished and the heavens departed as a scroll. Can one think of any better words to describe the fact that at this point in history the truth of the Gospel was in danger of nearly being extinguished that:

there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places


The Roman Empire was judged by God because it departed into apostasy. I see little significance in the fact that 'Christianity' under Constantine banished 'paganism' from the empire. I feel that Elliot's commitment to orthodoxy blinded him to this truth.

I welcome your comments.

--David

Hi Chris,

Well, I think that I will continue to cast my lot with the apostle John who said 'It doth not yet appear what we shall be'. That I feel is the only safe course. If he didn't claim to understand fully the nature of the resurrection body then it would be pretty foolish for me to speculate.

What I see is that both sides fail to consider ALL the evidence. Both seem to drive the scriptures into a contradiction. I'm not even sure that the post resurrection appearances of Jesus are a safe guide as to what the resurrection body is like. As stated, John didn't seem to claim to know. When John saw Jesus in a vision on Patmos, Jesus certainly did not appear to him as he did while on earth, whether before or after the resurrection.

The bottom line is, I can't stand the dogmatism that would plot one set of scriptures against another and will not engage in a meaningful discussion in order to honestly face these difficulties.

The great irony is of course that not even the apostle John claimed certainty in the matter, but was content with knowing that someday we will bear the image of our Master, whatever form that may be. The problem is simply that this is not, and will never be good enough for some people.

Love you brother,
David

David,

I actually tried to post this earlier and my server went down. I will comment on your recent posts later.

First, let preface this this by saying that I would never dogmatize any statement concerning the resurrection due to our incapacity to fathom all that may be entailed, however, I think that some scriptures on one or more sides may be being misrepresented in order to further their particular cause. These are my current interpretations of these three sets.

Joh 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except one be born anew, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
Joh 3:4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter a second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
Joh 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except one be born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God!
Joh 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

In this account Jesus is speaking to a reknown Jew, who recognized by tradition the importance of lineage-think the Levites...etc...to the Jews. Obviously the water represents repentance and the spirit represents newness so these two ideas with being "born again" represent the shedding of any fleshly importance of lineage and becoming a new creation able to ENTER or even SEE the Kingdom of God. Also...
Joh 3:8 The wind bloweth where it will, and thou hearest the voice thereof, but knowest not whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

In relation to the previous scriptures, this does not, to me mean that the man born of spirit (at that time and in our time, not in the time to come after death) is not ethereal and "changed" already as pertains to the last trump, but, no longer puts importance on lineage( cometh) and the destinations( goeth) that that would normally afford them in an earthly way due to lineage.

Second set is...
1Co 15:49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
1Co 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

Bearing the image of the heavenly?---All I can do is speculate and be excited, but I would not be so bold as to say it cannot be a mixture or any other word since I wonder what would happen to a resurrected one in a perfect body who is then completely filled to the brim with Holy Spirit(hmm?). As to "flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God", I think that after all Paul's lessons on works alongside the previous examination, I believe that the flesh concerns one's "works" and one's blood deals with lineage. The key word here is INHERIT. If it said these would not ENTER then the flesh and blood might take on a more "physical" aspect, but, to inherit something is more of legal or supposed event as opposed to a physical something that is or is not limited to a physical body. Thus the terms "inherit" and "lineage" harmonize better to me.

This next scripture is used constantly by those who would see two classes of Christians, and by that I mean those who are found "DESERVING" of an ethereal, heavenly body like those of the angels (which of course I would not argue too strongly against), and those poor pathetic souls who will be fortunate enough to have a physical body that won't die.

This scripture seems to be used quite frequently to prove that some men will have one type of resurrection while others have a different kind...
1Co 15:39 All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one flesh of men, and another flesh of beasts, and another flesh of birds, and another of fishes.
1Co 15:40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.
1Co 15:41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars; for one star differeth from another star in glory.
1Co 15:42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
1Co 15:43 it is sown in dishonor; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
1Co 15:44 it is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.

However, I don't see it here. Yes there is the citing of a spiritual body that pertains to men after the reward, but, prior to that the focus is on contrasts and comparisons between unrelated species. I do not see that the celestial bodies and earthly bodies are any different. The fact that the term "celestial" is used in verse 40 ( in this trans. or "heavenly") before the list of comparisons are finished and not "spiritual" seems to me to support the simple progression of the passage. It does not say that some men will be one way and some another, but, the idea seems to be "men", once they have drunk from the tree of life (at whatever time or age that happens for each) will be "spiritual". At this point I would have to question if the "life's water" has different effects on different people, although I would never put God in a box.

Your thoughts or corrections?
It will be nice to meet your father. This spring we passed the anniversary of Gina's father's passing which started me on this journey again.

Your Brother,

Chris

O that thou wouldest hide me in the grave, that thou wouldest keep me secret, until thy wrath be past, that thou wouldest appoint me a set time, and remember me! If a man die, shall he live [again]? all the days of my appointed time will I wait, till my change come. Thou shalt call, and I will answer thee: thou wilt have a desire to the work of thine hands.
(Job 14:13-15)

On September 6th it will be exactly four years since my father fell asleep in Christ. Each year, as the end of the summer approaches my thoughts turn to that painful day. But with that pain always comes the precious promises we have of the resurrection. Just as with our Lord and Master, the Father will not abondon any to sheol. Although I miss my dad in a most profound way, I look forward to that day when he shall hear the voice of Jesus and answer from the grave... to the day when we can sing together 'O death, where is your victory, O grave, where is your sting'.

Death and hades are to be destoyed... what an amazing and glorious truth.

--David

MORE MUSINGS ON THE ‘LAKE OF FIRE’

Ok, these are just some off the cuff, crazy thoughts which may or may not lead anywhere, but I’ll record them here for posterity (whoever posterity may be)…

I have recently come to define the ‘lake of fire’ as those judgments which are associated with the ‘Day of the Lord’. I would define ‘Day of the Lord’ as that period which briefly overlaps the current age beginning with the seventh trumpet, includes the bowl judgments, and extends all the way through the millennium unto the close of the last age – the ‘age of the ages’.

Now Chris, you and I have discussed a possible scenario in which the 1000 years is the time of Israel’s resurrection and perfection. There will also be other nations which will live through the close of this age into the millennium. They will also multiply during the 1000 years.

Now consider something like this:

There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you [yourselves] thrust out.
(Luk 13:28)

Or:

And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven. But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
(Mat 8:11-12)

Now the people who Jesus was speaking to here were Jews. In the resurrection it is said that these will be ‘thrust out’, or confined to outer darkness. My question is, thrust out to where? It doesn’t seem possible that they would just be allowed to wander in the nations outside Jerusalem. Notice also that they are cast into ‘outer darkness’. Consider also this:

Then his lord, after that he had called him, said unto him, O thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all that debt, because thou desiredst me: Shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellowservant, even as I had pity on thee? And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him. So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.
(Mat 18:32-35)

Notice here that the wicked servant is delivered to ‘the tormentors’ and can’t get out until he pays for everything! Again, my question is, exactly WHERE are they delivered? If they are thrust out of the city, away from the presence of Abraham Isaac, and Jacob, and are delivered into ‘outer darkness’, and the ‘tormentors’, then are we to understand this as a literal place?

This is something I’ve been thinking about, and have come up with some ideas. Consider this from Ezekiel:

Then said he unto me, These waters issue out toward the east country, and go down into the desert, and go into the sea: [which being] brought forth into the sea, the waters shall be healed. And it shall come to pass, [that] every thing that liveth, which moveth, whithersoever the rivers shall come, shall live: and there shall be a very great multitude of fish, because these waters shall come thither: for they shall be healed; and every thing shall live whither the river cometh. And it shall come to pass, [that] the fishers shall stand upon it from Engedi even unto Eneglaim; they shall be a [place] to spread forth nets; their fish shall be according to their kinds, as the fish of the great sea, exceeding many. But the miry places thereof and the marishes thereof shall not be healed; they shall be given to salt. (Eze 47:8-11)

Speaking here of the waters of life which flow from the city, we see that every place the waters flow, that place is healed, however, the above implies that there is a place, or places, where the waters do not flow, and that these places are not healed. Could the wicked be confined for a season to these places where these waters do not flow? Are these places the ‘outer darkness’ and the places where the wicked are driven for a season.

Additionally, concerning the destruction of Babylon the Great we read:

And again they said, Alleluia. And her smoke rose up for ever and ever.
(Rev 19:3)

Notice that Babylon’s smoke is to rise to the ‘ages of the ages’ (forever and ever is not a correct translation). This means that Babylon would not be healed either during the 1000 years, nor during the age following. It remains a wasteland for that entire period. We also read that the Beast and False prophet (which I understand to be Western Europe and the United States) are cast into the lake of fire prior to the 1000 years. Now in Daniel 7, we read that this Beast being given to the flames means that it’s dominion shall be taken away and consumed and destroyed unto the end. (The end of the ages??) But, it also says that the other beasts lives are prolonged for a season.

So, what to make of all this? Is this teaching that in the resurrection there are definite lands that act as a sort of prison? Lands where the healing waters do not flow, and where death and hades still exist in this ‘lake of fire’? Specifically, are the Western European nations to be turned into these lands where many will find themselves banished from our Lord’s presence until the proper judgment is rendered and they are led to repentance? Could the ‘lake of fire’ have reference to these lands where the judgment of God still burns unto the ‘ages of the ages’?

Additions and corrections welcome as always.

--David

More 'fun' quotes from the church 'Fathers'... this one comes from Tertullian via Gibbon's Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire. It is a bit hard to say exactly how this is supposed to fit with Jesus' command that we are to love our enemies and do good to those who mistreat us... These are the same Fathers that so many seem so fond of quoting, as though their opinions are supposed to carry some great authority...

"You are fond of spectacles," exclaims the stern Tertullian, "expect the greatest of all spectacles, the last and eternal judgment of the universe. How shall I admire, how laugh, how rejoice, how exult, when I behold so many proud monarchs, and fancied gods, groaning in the lowest abyss of darkness; so many magistrates, who persecuted the name of the Lord, liquefying in fiercer fires than they ever kindled against the Christians; so many sage philosophers blushing in red hot flames with their deluded scholars; so many celebrated poets trembling before the tribunal, not of Minos, but of Christ; so many tragedians, more tuneful in the expression of their own sufferings; so many dancers - " But the humanity of the reader will permit me to draw a veil over the rest of this infernal description, which the zealous African pursues in a long variety of affected and unfeeling witticisms.

Sadly I see this same attitude in 'Christian chat rooms all the time. I don't remember how many times I've heard a Christian say something like 'you won't think it's funny when you're burning in hell... I'll point at you and say 'I told you so'.

--David

Hey Chris,

Regarding your comments about the two witnesses... I do believe, as you stated that people will see an obvious fulfillment in whatever we are to understand as their 'being taken to heaven'. I take this to mean that there is to be some great vindication of the word of God immediately before the sounding of the seventh trumpet signalling that the Day of the Lord has arrived.

What might that vindication be? Well in Matthew 24, just before the elect are gathered with the sound of a 'great trumpet' we see all the nations mourning at the 'sign of the Son of Man' in heaven. This seems to be something that most commentators gloss over. There is clearly some SIGN BEFORE the elect are gathered. We know that the elect are gathered at the seventh trumpet, so this SIGN, whatever that is precedes that.

Because all the nations mourn at this sign, then they obviously understand its significance - therefore I take this sign in Matthew 24:30 (a sign in HEAVEN) to be understood in conjunction with the two witnesses being taken up into HEAVEN.

By this I understand that the word of God will be vindicated by some sign immediately preceding the seventh trumpet and the gathering of the elect. Not to forget, as you mentioned, that at the same time there will be a huge political upheaval (earthquake) and 1/10th of the city will fall (the collapase of a Europian government).

--David

Hey Chris,

Yeah I see that and I figured that Alex and Jon would be the first to jump in.

I think that Rhonda hit upon the key to all this. The answer lies in the fact that we will be changed. Paul explicitly says that that which is sown is only a bare grain of that which will rise. So is it the SAME body? Paul also says that flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom... I've heard people say that while this is true 'flesh and BONES (without blood presumably) can inherit the kingdom. I'll admit that seems a bit far fetched to me.

Didn't the apostle John say that 'is does not yet appear what we shall be, but we know that when he appears we will be like him, for we shall see him as he is'? Doesn't that suggest that John hadn't seen Jesus in his fully glorified state? If John hadn't yet seen Jesus 'as he is' then doesn't this in itself say something about the post resurrection appearances?

I think that both Alex and Jon are avoiding some issues. Paul said that Jesus was raised as a 'life giving spirit'. But Alex says that those who deny the resurrectiopn of the flesh make Jesus a liar when he says 'A spirit hath not flesh and bones'. Didn't then Paul also make Jesus a liar by explicitly stating that he was raised as a spirit?

Paul says that we shall be CHANGED... what is so hard about that? If I changed water into wine (which would be really cool about now), who would argue about what happened to the water? What happened to the water? Was it disposed of so that people wouldn't 'worship it'. Does the wine still 'contain' the water? Is the wine a hybrd 'water/wine' mix? No it was CHANGED into wine.

Moral: It is very unwise to plot on set of scriptures against another.

--David

How's that for starting a fire on harvestlist? I just hope it does't get too big. Gotta feeling since Alex already poked me one coupled with the fact that jon is so adamant about his position on the 'flesh" , we might have to break them up with baseball bats if they get started.

Chris

Hey david,

In response to your post on the Nicene Creed it seems that the mood of the edicts concerning the creed and overall the power held by Constantine and subsequently the Holy Roman Church supports your thoughts on the four Abominations of Desolation in that each time one appeared it was coupled with edicts outlawing or making difficult the act of true worship. Obviously we can see the makings of the last one in all these tolerance laws that are trying to gain ground..ie...homosexual tolerance as well as the "ten commandments" removal..."God" out, no prayer...etc... It wouldn't take much more for the fanatics to fan the flames and the governments to start shutting us down.

Keep looking to the clouds!

Chris

Hello you guys,

David, here's a thought: The validation of the Two Witnesses can be an obvious fulfillment of prophecy. Per our study we see how many things happen that the masses don't realize as fulfillment, but, is there something obvious to everyone who has any Bible knowledge that will be an alert....such as, perhaps....
1Th 5:3 When they are saying, Peace and safety, then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall in no wise escape.

Rev 11:12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they went up into heaven in the cloud; and their enemies beheld them.
Rev 11:13 And in that hour there was a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell; and there were killed in the earthquake seven thousand persons: and the rest were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.

What if, as the Bible lay seemingly overcome (which could be the cause of or parallel people celebrating "peace"), the one tenth of the city falls(Babylon) suddenly, then the Seventh Trumpet starts to blow. The pronouncement of "peace and security" followed by something large and violent might be somewhat alerting to those watching and as with all crisis, people generally look to religion, especially the one that says this would happen. All kinds of chaos ensues (which just might overshadow the gathering of the elect or be enflamed by it?) by the vials being poured out. I am not sure that between the sixth and the seventh vials is where the frogs speak there philosophies or that this is just when the philosophies(that have always warred against Christ and his Word) come to a vital point in trying to convince the world that they are still in control or that what is happening is not really happening.

Just lookin' at options.
Your brother,

Chris

I was just noticing that things on the Harvest List are VERY quiet. Do either of you have any ideas for topics there? It seems that the Trinity discussion really brought things to a halt. Any Suggestions?

--David

Friends,

The following is a quote from 'The Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' by Gibbon. Here he is discussing the doctrine of the trinity, and the attitude of Constantine towards those who would not embrace it.

The Nicene creed was ratified by Constantine; and his firm declaration, that those who resisted the divine judgment of the synod must prepare themselves for an immediate exile, annihilated the murmurs of a feeble opposition; which, from seventeen, was almost instantly reduced to two, protesting bishops. Eusebius of Casarea yielded a reluctant and ambiguous consent to the homoousion; and the wavering conduct of the Nicomedian Eusebius served only to delay about three months his disgrace and exile. The impious Arius was banished into one of the remote provinces of Illyricum; his person and disciples were branded, by law, with the odious name of Porphyrians; his writings were condemned to the flames, and a capital punishment was denounced against those in whose possession they should be found. The emperor had now imbibed the spirit of controversy, and the angry sarcastic style of his edicts was designed to inspire his subjects with the hatred which he had conceived against the enemies of Christ.

The following is an online conversation which took place on 8-17-03


tapestrycg (9:05 PM): You up?
MereDust (9:05 PM): so far
tapestrycg (9:06 PM): was looking at timing on the transfig
MereDust (9:06 PM): I was looking at a harmony of the gospels of it
tapestrycg (9:06 PM): what do you have so far?
tapestrycg (9:07 PM): Internatianal Bible encyc. puts it mid-way of the ministry
MereDust (9:07 PM): well its hard to say.. just puts in the year of opposition...
MereDust (9:08 PM): during the third tour of gallilee
tapestrycg (9:08 PM): John is the only one without the account but it is the only one with that prayer correct?
MereDust (9:09 PM): my harmony here seems to place the prayer of john 17 well after the transfiguration
tapestrycg (9:10 PM): oohhh
tapestrycg (9:11 PM): well that throws that out
MereDust (9:11 PM): yeah the prayer in john 17 is during passion week.... the transfiguration is months before that
tapestrycg (9:13 PM): Such is the simple record. What is its significance? The Scripture narrative offers no explanation, and indeed the event is afterward referred to only in the most general way by Peter (2Pe_1:16-18) and, perhaps, by John (Joh_1:14). That it marked a crisis in the career of Jesus there can be no doubt. From this time He walked consciously under the shadow of the cross. A strict silence on the subject was enjoined upon the three witnesses of His transfiguration until after “the Son of man should have risen again from the dead.� This means that, as not before, Jesus was made to realize the sacrificial character of His mission; was made to know for a certainty that death, soon and cruel, was to be His portion; was made to know also that His mission as the fulfillment of Law (Moses) and prophecy (Elijah) was not to be frustrated by death. In His heart now would sound forever the Father's approval, “This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.� The scene, therefore, wrought out in Jesus a new fervor, a new boldness, a new
tapestrycg (9:14 PM): confidence of ultimate victory which, as a source of holy joy, enabled Him to endure the cross and to despise the shame (Heb_12:2). In the disciples the scene must have wrought a new faith in the heavensent leadership of Jesus. In the dark days which were soon to come upon them the memory of the brightness of that unforgettable night would be a stay and strength. There might be opposition, but there could be no permanent defeat of one whose work was ratified by Moses, by Elijah, by God Himself. Indeed, was not the presence of Moses and Elijah a pledge of immortality for all? How in the face of such evidence, real to them, however it might be to others, could they ever again doubt the triumph of life and of Him who was the Lord of life? The abiding lesson of the Transfiguration is that of the reality of the unseen world, of its nearness to us, and of the comforting and inspiring fact that “spirit with spirit may meet.�

tapestrycg (9:15 PM): Interesting thoughts that seem to harmonize somewhat with yours.
MereDust (9:15 PM): right.. other than the reference to the immortality of the soul
tapestrycg (9:15 PM): Well yeah
MereDust (9:16 PM): hey, i need to go do something, will be back in a few minutes
tapestrycg (9:16 PM): ok
MereDust (9:16 PM): ok.. be back in a bit
tapestrycg Signed off at 9:34 PM.
tapestrycg Signed on at 9:35 PM.
MereDust (9:41 PM): ok back
tapestrycg (9:41 PM): ok
tapestrycg (9:41 PM): I think I have my head wrapped around the transfig..at least for now
MereDust (9:42 PM): well I suppose we could speculate endlessly but there really is only so much information about it that we're given to work with
tapestrycg (9:43 PM): now onto Babylon!
tapestrycg (9:45 PM): I'm having a little trouble with the proclamations that Babylon has fallen, then the commands to get out...etc...it seems at times that the fallen aspect is not so much the destruction but the complete fall into disrespect even though Babylon could never have been exalted in God's eyes....confused
MereDust (9:46 PM): well first of all the tense of the verb there is not past tense 'fallen'... but rather 'babylon falls'
tapestrycg (9:46 PM): ok, that changes things
tapestrycg (9:47 PM): ok that changes everything
MereDust (9:47 PM): hmm
MereDust (9:47 PM): ok
tapestrycg (9:49 PM): if that is the tense then it makes it an observation or a pronouncement that she is (beginning) to fall..etc...so that the statement that If anyone worships the beast or the image-which would mean they are in existence at the "fall" anouncement puts the fall as an on-going thing
MereDust (9:50 PM): yes
MereDust (9:51 PM): does that help your problem?
tapestrycg (9:51 PM): yes, but I wonder at all the mistranslations
MereDust (9:52 PM): yeah, isnt it great..
MereDust (9:52 PM): not!
tapestrycg (9:53 PM): the irony is that these official annpuncements aren't made until after the elect are gathered but it is apparent that she falls now
tapestrycg (9:53 PM): announcements
MereDust (9:54 PM): ok, but these seem to me to just be general observatrions.. for example, the next announcment.. 'if any man worship etc'.. is NOT future tense.. it is 'if anyone is worshiping'.. already in the process
tapestrycg (9:55 PM): true
MereDust (9:55 PM): 'if anyone is worshiping, the same will be drinking etc'
tapestrycg (9:55 PM): continuances
MereDust (9:56 PM): these things are in progress but judgment is about to be poured out upon them
tapestrycg (9:58 PM): what about the war of armeggeddon, does this overlap the fall of the city as accords chap 16?
MereDust (9:59 PM): well i beleive armaegedon is the very last of the judgments that bring out babylons complete overthrow which is symbolized by the beast going into the lake of fire (coming under complete judgment)
tapestrycg (10:01 PM): right, for some reason I had been thinking that the complete fall would be first, then the war but the seventh vial that makes everything complete, coupled with the presence of Christ with the elect...etc....
MereDust (10:02 PM): I think its easy to try and read these things in strict chronological order, but really they cant be, various sections overlap.. and when yu think of it, it would be very nearly impossible to write them in chronological order
tapestrycg (10:03 PM): yes I see that chap 16 and 19 are dependant on each other
MereDust (10:03 PM): and for example...
MereDust (10:04 PM): the vision of the harvest in 14 is simply a representation of the vial judgments and armageddon...it is not a separate harvest before those events
tapestrycg (10:04 PM): yes
MereDust (10:05 PM): in the same way the great white throne judgment is not a singular events, but represents what is detailed before and after it
MereDust (10:05 PM): although some people have a very hard time reading in any other way than strictly chronological
tapestrycg (10:05 PM): I keep thinking that I'm going to compile everything together and make a timeline and then I want to curl up in the corner and cry
MereDust (10:06 PM): sections of chpts 11, 12 and 13 completely overlap
MereDust (10:06 PM): lol
tapestrycg (10:06 PM): I'd love to see the look on my face when someone asks me what I think of Revelation
MereDust (10:07 PM): but I think Revealtion is not always a good starting place without having first a working knowledge of the other prophets, of Matt 24 - 25 and what Paul wrote concerning Jesus coming
MereDust (10:08 PM): but people lean toward Revelation first most of the time
tapestrycg (10:08 PM): it's so mystical and cool sounding
MereDust (10:09 PM): yeah it is!
MereDust (10:09 PM): like Rev 20:5.. the rest of the dea lived not etc...
MereDust (10:09 PM): you cant just take that and run with it like Alex did without trying to harmonize it with everything else thats said
MereDust (10:10 PM): but Alex said there were no other 'timing' verses, which proves my point
tapestrycg (10:10 PM): what about the references of the "alpha and the omega" and the First and the last.......have you looked at those indepth?
MereDust (10:11 PM): not really.. I know the reference at 1:11 where that title is applied to Jesus is lacking in manuscript evience
tapestrycg (10:12 PM): I wonder if at the end when it is referenced if it is not the angel speaking for Jesus speaking for God
MereDust (10:12 PM): at 22:13 you mean?
tapestrycg (10:13 PM): yes and...
tapestrycg (10:13 PM): 21:6
MereDust (10:13 PM): I've always felt 21:6 applied to the Father
tapestrycg (10:13 PM): oh, nevermind, that is God
MereDust (10:14 PM): as far as 22:13... I've always seen it as a series of benedictions
tapestrycg (10:14 PM): yes i tend to agree
tapestrycg (10:15 PM): that's usually a trinity ammo-thing
MereDust (10:16 PM): well when they can show me where it says that God is three persons I'll accept their 'ammo'
tapestrycg (10:16 PM): he-he
MereDust (10:16 PM): they cant seem to comprehend that one who speaks for and represents God can be called 'God' in representative sense
MereDust (10:17 PM): Jesus was the express image of the Father
tapestrycg (10:17 PM): so was Moses
MereDust (10:17 PM): he can be called 'God' without one on one being identified as God almighty
tapestrycg (10:17 PM): ooooooooooooohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhyou're a polytheist!!!!!!!!!
MereDust (10:17 PM): but that's much too hard for some people to grasp, hehe
MereDust (10:17 PM): oh please
tapestrycg (10:17 PM): it's funny
MereDust (10:18 PM): they are the ones who say that three persons are each God
MereDust (10:18 PM): yet there is ONE God.. its all a great mystery
tapestrycg (10:19 PM): does it seem to you that the armies are gathered to Arm, to fight each other or against Christ or do they gather and before the firing starts they are interrupted?
MereDust (10:19 PM): see this type of thing I struggle with...
MereDust (10:19 PM): are we talking literal military battle?
MereDust (10:19 PM): in what sense are they 'gathered'
tapestrycg (10:19 PM): I am soooooooglad you say that
tapestrycg (10:20 PM): that's the line of thought I've been going over
tapestrycg (10:20 PM): cause the frogs seem to be what they are gathered by
MereDust (10:20 PM): because the historicist position tends to go against an overly literalistic sense
MereDust (10:20 PM): yes
MereDust (10:21 PM): because look at this
tapestrycg (10:21 PM): and Armegeddon, if we are to take it in the same symbolic sense as Babylon can merely be a Crossroads were religious issues are settled
MereDust (10:21 PM): they are slain by the sword that comes out of Jesus mouth
tapestrycg (10:21 PM): the Word
MereDust (10:21 PM): now if this is a literal battle
tapestrycg (10:21 PM): bible
MereDust (10:22 PM): i shouldnt phrase it like that.. it can be a literal battle, just maybe a military one on aliteral plain in Jerusalem.. if that makes sense
tapestrycg (10:23 PM): well there are going to be wars..etc... but the question I think we are both asking is is there a literal war between the unified armies of earth against Christ
MereDust (10:24 PM): right
MereDust (10:24 PM): the world can unite in battle against Christ without machine guns and tanks
tapestrycg (10:24 PM): ok....is there a way to identify exactly when this war starts in scrip?
MereDust (10:24 PM): remember there was/is a war waged on the two witnesses
tapestrycg (10:25 PM): heyyyy
tapestrycg (10:27 PM): if the war against the Wit's lasts until they are iverthrown(by the government out of the abyss) then they get validated before or at the onset of the last trumpet which is when the vials begin then the "armies" of the earth and the philosophies will have a full-out "war" on the Word...
MereDust (10:27 PM): true
tapestrycg (10:28 PM): brb
MereDust (10:28 PM): i think though that we are talking about an event where there will be literallly many dead people
MereDust (10:29 PM): I say that because of Jesus reference to the carcass and the vultures, and compared with the days of Noah in which the wicked are 'taken away'
MereDust (10:29 PM): and when it says that they are slain by the sword out of his mouth.. that could just mean that they are slain by the judgments that were predicted in the Word of God.. that all those judgments come to pass
tapestrycg (10:31 PM): yessss
tapestrycg (10:32 PM): Hey, I hate to cut short, but it's time to go...think some more on this and we'll definitely continue this later, it seems to be falling into place
MereDust (10:33 PM): ok no problem.. good talking as usual
MereDust (10:33 PM): God bless
tapestrycg (10:33 PM): same to ya

Hi Chris,

I need to look more into the timing....

One thing that I forgot to mention that I found interesting about the timing of the transfiguration.... Matthew and Mark say it was 'after six days'.. Luke says that it was 'about eight days'. Well, 'after six', and 'about eight' equals the SEVENTH day. Could this be a cryptic reference to the millennium? The transfiguration does seem to represent the kingdom, or the seventh day of rest. I just found that interesting.

--David

Hey David,

The prayer in John 17 says
Joh 17:24 Father, I desire that they also whom thou hast given me be with me where I am, that they may behold my glorywhich thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.

and at the end of the prayer there is a gap of events culminating in his arrival at the garden of Gethsemane where Judas betrayed him.Joh 18:1 When Jesus had spoken these words, he went forth with his disciples over the brook Kidron, where was a garden, into which he entered, himself and his disciples.
Joh 18:2 Now Judas also, who betrayed him, knew the place: for Jesus oft-times resorted thither with his disciples.

The transfiguration-if I am not mistaken- happens after the prayer and obviously before the arrival at the garden. Maybe that puts more emphasis on the "glory of the Kingdom" as foreshadowed by the vision.

Is my timeline correct?

Chris

Hey David,

I'm in. I think this is going to be great!

Love,

Chris

Hi Chris,

I was just noticing too that Moses and Elijah are both mentioned together at the very end of the Hebrew Scriptures (Mal 4:4-5)... I'm not exactly sure just yet if theer is a significance or a connection, just found it interesting.

--David

The Transfiguration (Matt. 17:1-8. Mark 9:2-8. Luke 9:28-36).

Chris,

This is a link to Companion Bible appendix concerning the transfiguration. Thought you might find it interesting.

--David

U.S. losing hearts and minds of Baghdad Shi'ites: "U.S. losing hearts and minds of Baghdad Shi'ites

By Andrew Cawthorne


BAGHDAD, Aug. 16 � A Baghdad slum that gave a joyous welcome to U.S. troops after Saddam Hussein's fall is now seething in anger at the occupiers' shortcomings. "

Hi Chris and Rhonda,

I just wanted to say welcome and that I really appreciate you both being interested in this. Let me know if there are any questions or problems.

Love you,
David

<[A Psalm] of David.> Bless the LORD, O my soul: and all that is within me, [bless] his holy name. Bless the LORD, O my soul, and forget not all his benefits: Who forgiveth all thine iniquities; who healeth all thy diseases; Who redeemeth thy life from destruction; who crowneth thee with lovingkindness and tender mercies; Who satisfieth thy mouth with good [things; so that] thy youth is renewed like the eagle's.
(Psa 103:1-5)

These words have always been of great comfort to me, particularly in the last couple years during some difficult times. I remember reading these words when I first was diagnosed with Diabetes. I was self-employed and had no 'benefits'. I remember reading these words - that being one of God's children has wonderful 'benefits': That our iniquities are forgiven, that one day all our diseases and infirmities will be healed, that He is loving and merciful towards us, and that our youth will be restored. We really couldn't ask for any better benefits than those could we? What a great God we serve!

--David